Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

By the "Queens battalion" ( an infantry unit) he means the rifle companies..

Seriously? Your case now rests on you interpreting what Major McColl meant? You are aware that a battalion consists of more than just rifle coys? The AT platoon had, since 1942, been an integral part.

I am aware thank you. But a unit is reckoned based on its named purpose and character. An infantry unit is meant to fight with its riflemen.. the other arms are acting in support of the main protagonists. When an infantry unit is asked to join a particular action, its based on its stated character i.e., it is expected to contribute primarily through its riflemen. If the rifle companies dont arrive and a few AT guns show up then the purpose of calling the unit is defeated.

Imagine, for a dinner party, a catering firm is contracted. But by 7 in the evening only the coffee vending machine, the cooler for the soft drinks, salad dressings et al arrive..while the main courses and soup ( or materials for them), dishes and cutlery are stuck in a traffic jam miles away. Then would someone be justified in cribbing that the caterer didn't show up in time?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

1) Time span is there. The start time is recorded i.e., 0900 hrs. The end time ( if the Bray version prevails) is recorded as 0945..

Bray was not in Villers. Bray was never in Villers. Bray was a member of the groups stranded outside Villers. Bray had nothing, nothing at all, to do with any action inside Villers Bocage. Bray was , at best, 800 mtrs and round a bend in the road from Wittmann who was knocked out in the centre of Villers Bocage. The fighting between the groups outside Villers and the German went on until c 13:00 hours so that action did not 'end' at 09:45.
The Rifle Brigade in the Second World War 1939-1945 by Major R.H.W.S. Hastings of The Rifle Brigade, published by Gale and Polden Ltd, Aldershot 1950 makes no claim that Bray knocked out a Tiger. It simply says:
Sgt Bray had managed to get one 6pdr into action and he claimed to have hit two half-tracks and one armoured car before a tank had knocked his gun out and then driven down the road machine-gunning the ditches.

It is you who is making a firm connection 6pdr at Tilly Junction = Bray=radio report=Tiger knocked out. There were 2 x 6 pdr guns not one. Where was the second one located?
To reconcile the facts you should first get to know them or should I say be aware of the fact that not all 'facts' are really facts.

We have been over this route .. again and again.. Ok one more time. I HOLD NO BRIEF FOR THE BRAY KNOCKING OUT WITTMANN THEORY. My purpose in mentioning Bray here was to show that others.. apart form me.. have thought Wittmann to be in the VB area till 9.40 - 9.45. Quoting out of context doesn't help really.

If so many people have believed that Bray knocked out Wittmann, then the basis is the 0945 radio log at XXX corps. Whether Bray actually knocked out Wittmann or not isn't the issue here. The issue is, if people are ready to believe that Bray knocked him out around 0945 then he must have been around in the vicinity till approx that time ( a difference of a few hundred yards worth of driving time between the shop and the Tilly junction doesn't interfere with this time span).

[Urmel]

By the "Queens battalion" ( an infantry unit) he means the rifle companies..

Seriously? Your case now rests on you interpreting what Major McColl meant? You are aware that a battalion consists of more than just rifle coys? The AT platoon had, since 1942, been an integral part.

I am aware thank you. But a unit is reckoned based on its named purpose and character. An infantry unit is meant to fight with its riflemen.. the other arms are acting in support of the main protagonists. When an infantry unit is asked to join a particular action, its based on its stated character i.e., it is expected to contribute primarily through its riflemen. If the rifle companies dont arrive and a few AT guns show up then the purpose of calling the unit is defeated.

Imagine, for a dinner party, a catering firm is contracted. But by 7 in the evening only the coffee vending machine, the cooler for the soft drinks, salad dressings et al arrive..while the main courses and soup ( or materials for them), dishes and cutlery are stuck in a traffic jam miles away. Then would someone be justified in cribbing that the caterer didn't show up in time?

Okay, so nothing but supposition. Thanks for confirming.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

By the "Queens battalion" ( an infantry unit) he means the rifle companies..

Seriously? Your case now rests on you interpreting what Major McColl meant? You are aware that a battalion consists of more than just rifle coys? The AT platoon had, since 1942, been an integral part.

I am aware thank you. But a unit is reckoned based on its named purpose and character. An infantry unit is meant to fight with its riflemen.. the other arms are acting in support of the main protagonists. When an infantry unit is asked to join a particular action, its based on its stated character i.e., it is expected to contribute primarily through its riflemen. If the rifle companies dont arrive and a few AT guns show up then the purpose of calling the unit is defeated.

Imagine, for a dinner party, a catering firm is contracted. But by 7 in the evening only the coffee vending machine, the cooler for the soft drinks, salad dressings et al arrive..while the main courses and soup ( or materials for them), dishes and cutlery are stuck in a traffic jam miles away. Then would someone be justified in cribbing that the caterer didn't show up in time?

Okay, so nothing but supposition. Thanks for confirming.

Please wait till I can post a scanned copy of the relevant page from Taylor's book which mentions that elements of the Queens reached VB by 0930

[Urmel]

Which, as Michael has repeatedly pointed out, proves nothing.

[Michael Kenny]

I try not get too involved in debates over the time-line.. Rich posted in an old thread the timings from 22 Armoured Brigade War Diary. Their radio log has RHQ attacked at 08:30. Dan also says on page 33 of VBTTL "less than 10 mins had passed since the German panzer force had opened fire" when there are so many contradictory times then it is easy to just pick the ones that best suit your case and it is very clear someone is desperate to get a 6pdr into the picture. One wonders if this is in any way related to a pre-disposition to refuse to believe a Sherman could knock out a Tiger and thus to find another reason, any reason, to deny credit for such a feat.
Bray is indeed put forward for knocking out a Tiger by Dan (in the 1990's remember) with the source (see caption of photo on page 34) given as a mention in the RB book.
As anyone can see the book does not say that:
Sgt Bray had managed to get one 6pdr into action and he claimed to have hit two half-tracks and one armoured car before a tank had knocked his gun out and then driven down the road machine-gunning the ditches.
Forty repeats this Bray/Tiger claim in his 2004 book but given he uses VBTTL as his source then he would do wouldn't he. Circular referencing is being misrepresented as multiple independent sources once again.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Which, as Michael has repeatedly pointed out, proves nothing.

No? The possibility of AT guns and carriers having reached VB around the time Wittmann had just disengaged with Lockwood proves nothing?

[Urmel]

A possibility can by definition not prove anything. It can only raise further questions. Facts prove things.

Furthermore, you are adding two possibilities:

1) That the AT guns reached VB by 0930 and had in fact been set up (which would take additional time)
2) That Wittmann's engagement lasted until 0930

I am sorry if you cannot see that you are grasping at straws.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

I try not get too involved in debates over the time-line.. Rich posted in an old thread the timings from 22 Armoured Brigade War Diary. Their radio log has RHQ attacked at 08:30.

The 4 CLY just reached VB around 0830....

[sandeepmukherjee196]

A possibility can by definition not prove anything. It can only raise further questions. Facts prove things.

Furthermore, you are adding two possibilities:

1) That the AT guns reached VB by 0930 and had in fact been set up (which would take additional time)
2) That Wittmann's engagement lasted until 0930

I am sorry if you cannot see that you are grasping at straws.

And denial of the fact that Wittmann was around till 0930 is based on ?

[sandeepmukherjee196]

A possibility can by definition not prove anything. It can only raise further questions. Facts prove things.

Exactly...We are trying to make an inventory of the possibilities here. If this was an open and shut case like for e.g., which Cromwell Wittmann destroyed first when he began that morning...then we wouldn't have been consuming page after page on this thread like this.

[Michael Kenny]

There is no possibility of a Queens 6pdr being in the street of central Villers because as their CO makes clear they did not recieve notice to move their AT guns forward until after the fight started.

he states that the unit heard of the attack by Tigers on the head of the column whilst on the road approaching Villers, near Amaye. In response to this information, he sent the AT platoon forward in their carriers to help out

In addition to trying to shoehorn a 6pdr into the picture the time Wittmann spent into Villers has to be stretched to as long as possible. Its a 2 pronged attempt to try and preserve the myth.

There is no search for 'possibilities ' but rather a pathetic last-ditch attempt by an SS fanbois to preserve the myth of Wittmann. Minor petty and irrelevant contradictions are distorted, inflated and manipulated in order to muddy the waters and confuse the reader into believing the propaganda version of event might just be possible.. This posters earlier incredible claim Wittmann drove right up to the Firefly and had a ramming competition destroys any claims he might know what he is talking about.
All the threads I start on a German high scoring ace attract this type of poster. I count 5 in this thread alone with 2 since banned. It goes with the territory and given I never post until all my ducks are lined up they never last long.

[Michael Kenny]

Exactly...We are trying to make an inventory of the possibilities here. If this was an open and shut case like for e.g., which Cromwell Wittmann destroyed first when he began that morning...then we wouldn't have been consuming page after page on this thread like this.

There is no 'open and shut case' on which Cromwell was destroyed first. Again you show a remarkable unfamiliarity with current research on this matter.
Which Cromwell do you believe he destroyed first by the way? Perhaps you should check with Rick before replying.

[Michael Kenny]

Film that seems to back up claims the Tiger crews were trained to bring a house crashing down-who knows Wittmann may have tried it on the Firefly at Villers!

http://youtu.be/qoyW83fdJi4?t=11s

[Kingfish]

Film that seems to back up claims the Tiger crews were trained to bring a house crashing down-who knows Wittmann may have tried it on the Firefly at Villers!

http://youtu.be/qoyW83fdJi4?t=11s

This explains why the Tiger was so easily defeated on the open steppes of Russia.
With no buildings to topple on the enemy the vaunted schwere Panzers struggled against the T34/76