Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

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Urmel
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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#376

Post by Urmel » 06 Mar 2015, 14:24

I think it's pretty clear from reading this thread who is on which side of the divide.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#377

Post by Christoph Awender » 06 Mar 2015, 17:10

So lets get back on discussing the case as in the Topic and stay back from Kindergarten Yard behaviour.

/Christoph


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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#378

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 06 Mar 2015, 19:16

Thanks Christoph

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#379

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 06 Mar 2015, 19:47

Hi Urmel....

Just went through the blog site connected to the Crusader Project link provided in the signature line of your posts. It's brilliant stuff man ! I was just reading the article on the 11 Indian Brig. How can I discuss further with you? Who is Andreas pl?

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#380

Post by RichTO90 » 06 Mar 2015, 20:28

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:Hi Urmel....Who is Andreas pl?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Better get back on topic.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#381

Post by RichTO90 » 06 Mar 2015, 20:41

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:This is more like it Richard :) This is more like the old Richard who we know on AHF. Perhaps you just get led astray sometimes..due to the mob pressure over here..kinda need to conform to the lynch mob now and then :D
Gee, now you're just wallowing in self pity, aren't you? :lol:
As you have said, my interpretations of events are just that..interpretations..nothing to do with language. The ramming theory may have been a bummer in the context of VB. But strange things have been said about the VB action in the past by others too ... you must admit.
For eg tank crew are forbidden to shoot at each other in a battle zone once they are dismounted. Or Wittmann's Tiger was later being short tracked, with the track completely removed, at the same time doubting that he had been hit in the tracks in the first place!
I don't know how to tell you this, but "interpretations" have everything to do with language. :lol: The "action of explaining the meaning of something" can be done with Emoticons I suppose :lol: , but usually the use of a verbal or written language moves things along a bit quicker.

So who suggested such a prohibition? And I'm afraid you still don't understand short-tracking or what the likely damage was.
Wittmann's reluctance to engage Lockwood's firefly that day is not a matter of interpretation really...It is a well established fact not waiting for anyone's gracious say so! He simply withdrew after exchanging a few shots. And he wasn't faced with the entire B sqdrn.. Or even a whole troop.
Oh dear, now you imagine that Lockwood's Sherman 17-pdr was there by his lonesome? :roll: Lockwood's troop indeed was there, but only Lockwood engaged. I suggest you read the accounts of his action more carefully...you seem to be falling into that collapsing building syndrome again. :lol:
As to the matter of my bringing up the Norrey en Bessin episode involving the Firefly - Panther duel..if you check the thread..there was a discussion going on about the Germans' previous exposure to the Firefly. Like I have said before...since we don't really know what was going on in Wittmann's mind, we can only try to fit in his known actions with possible motivations, based on whatever other inputs we have.
Well, we could go back to December 1942 and the German's first encounter with the 17-pdr, which is likely more apropos. However, a much better "possible motivation" is that his tank was damaged and was getting out of the line of fire of whatever had damaged it. The Germans well knew the Tiger was not impenetrable and Wittmann's Tiger succumbed shortly after to the damage. So I would suggest, QED, he withdrew to assess the damage.
I am still trying to locate instances of my deliberate use of "subtly" different language vis a vis German and Allied actions.
Oh, don't worry, I'm sure you'll come up with some more.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#382

Post by Urmel » 06 Mar 2015, 21:35

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:Hi Urmel....

Just went through the blog site connected to the Crusader Project link provided in the signature line of your posts. It's brilliant stuff man ! I was just reading the article on the 11 Indian Brig. How can I discuss further with you? Who is Andreas pl?
Probably best to leave a comment under the article.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#383

Post by pintere » 12 Mar 2015, 17:04

Overall, I think Wittmann has been way overhyped in discussions of kill claims. There are plenty of other, equally impressive accounts of small groups of Tigers taking on superior foes and winning. I think these should be given a bit more consideration.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#384

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Jul 2015, 04:08

German tank kill claims in Jan 1944 was 4,679- the largest german eastern front tank kill month of 1944.

The 1.PzA/4.PzA claimed 1,835 tank kills in Jan 1944. This is not including 507 tank kills claimed from Dec 21-31 1943.

OP 'Watutin', in which Wittmann was involved in the last week of Jan 1944 claimed 700 tank kills. Like Kursk, this was a windfall of tank kills. There is also the matter of 48.PzK raids Nov 1943-Dec 1943. They also claim 700 tank kills. Then there were was the armored engagements of the Zhitomir-Berdichev offensive and then the german offensive stance from Jan 9-31,1944.

Figures are official and are from Zhitomir-Berdichev: German Operations West of Kiev 24 December 1943-31 January 1944, Crucible of Combat, and from Armored Champion, Zaloga.

So Wittmann's windfalls are July 1943 and Jan 1944.
Michael Wittmann is credited with 138 kills up to his death in August 1944. In Agte's book on Wittmann you read that he left Russia for Normandy with 114 or 117 kills to his name. Over half this total seems to have been racked up in the period 7th January to 29th January. It is said his kill total was:
56 on 7/1/44 (page 213)
66 on 9/1/44 (page 181)
88 on 13/1/44 (page 213)
114-117 29/1/44 (page 185)

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#385

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Jul 2015, 05:19

So Wittmann is 100% correct in his claims at a time when 30-50% reductions in crew kill claims were routine to allow for the known problem of overclaim.
However by the time he gets to Normandy he suddenly becomes very innacurate in his kill claims. He gets a medal for knocking out 25 tanks when he could only claim 10 at the most and in a battle where only 12 tanks in total were penetrated/knocked out. He also gives an interview where he clearly says he knocked out all those tanks.
Must be the Calvados!

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#386

Post by jpz4 » 29 Jul 2015, 16:55

Perhaps a bit off topic, but there's a rumor going around someone just stole his grave marker from La Cambe. How low can you go?

If this is true I sort of doubt it was an act of someone disliking the guy... probably the opposite.
Goes to show what sort of people glorify the guy, which makes it fitting to add it to this thread......

Let the dead rest in peace. All of them.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#387

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Jul 2015, 17:07

I will edit this once I get the book sets. From the same sources:

SSLAH hovered between (roughly) 10-50 tanks during Jan 1944 with an uptick to 75 on Jan 21st.

Context for OP Watutin: Main Infantry units: 4 GJ, 101 J, 254 ID

Armored units (only) of 3.PzK, 46.PzK:

Heavy PR-BAKE, 1.SSLAH, 6.Pz, 16.Pz, 17.Pz. Nevenkin estimates that the attack force was 300-250 armor.

According to Crucible in Combat, BAKE and the SSLAH had the highest tank kill claims of the units involved. SSLAH went into action Jan 22nd with 75 tanks and PR BAKE, a bit more. BAKE's unit claimed 267 tank kills. I don't know what SSLAH claimed.

Many of Wittmann's later 26-29 kills were likely tallied from this operation. The prior kills were also credited in an armor heavy context of Zhitomir-Berdichev and then the aftermath.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#388

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Jul 2015, 18:00

I don't own the Leibstandarte set or have the files. What would be interesting to see is the periodic kill claims of the 1.SSLAH from Nov 1943-Jan 1944, its operational armor strengths, and then contrasted to those attributable to Wittmann (and the tiger unit as a whole). Then the nature of the SSLAH tank operations involving Tigers on a per-action basis- whether it was in formation such as the 'armored bell' or in a more simple grouping.

The SSLAH came off of rail in Nov and started its tour around Nov 15th with around 227+ tanks (not including SP guns). Its operational tanks were quickly reduced in two weeks of combat- often fielding just 50, 60. It was down to 20 by Mid-Dec and was hovering 10-50 until 21st Jan (75) for Watutin.

The "Tigers in Combat" series should help some.

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#389

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Jul 2015, 19:07

Cult Icon wrote:
The "Tigers in Combat" series should help some.
It wont.



1st SS Tank states Dec 1942-Jan 1943. Source Wood &Dougdale. Waffen SS Panzer Units In Normandy 1944 pages 31-34.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Waffen-Panzer-U ... 0952886707

1st ss.jpg
1st ss (1).jpg
1st ss (2).jpg
1st ss(3) zz.jpg
1st ss(3) cv.jpg
However give this earlier outburst in another thread
Cult Icon wrote:I consider you a forum troll and not reliable- like this statement here, which is a false accusation. So I do not trust your research- I prefer to look to others.
I fully understand that you can not use this information for anything and thus you will never repost it here or elsewhere,

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Re: Wittmann, Villers Bocage and his kill claims.

#390

Post by pintere » 29 Jul 2015, 20:22

Cult Icon wrote:I don't own the Leibstandarte set or have the files. What would be interesting to see is the periodic kill claims of the 1.SSLAH from Nov 1943-Jan 1944, its operational armor strengths, and then contrasted to those attributable to Wittmann (and the tiger unit as a whole). Then the nature of the SSLAH tank operations involving Tigers on a per-action basis- whether it was in formation such as the 'armored bell' or in a more simple grouping.

The SSLAH came off of rail in Nov and started its tour around Nov 15th with around 227+ tanks (not including SP guns). Its operational tanks were quickly reduced in two weeks of combat- often fielding just 50, 60. It was down to 20 by Mid-Dec and was hovering 10-50 until 21st Jan (75) for Watutin.

The "Tigers in Combat" series should help some.
While the Tigers in Combat series is not the best choice for the whole division, it certainly is helpful when seeing Wittmann's actions in light of the rest of his company. Here are a few sections from the book (all concerning the 13./SS-Panzer-Regiment 1).

Losses:

Date - Losses - On hand - Remarks

15 November 1943 - 2 - 25- Destroyed by friendly fire
8 December 1943 - 1 - 24 - Captured
19 December 1943 - 1 - 23 - Knocked out by an antitank gun
24 December 1943 - 7 - 16 - Destroyed by own crew
28 December 1943 - 1 - 15 - Knocked out by tanks
29 December 1943 - 2 - 13 - Destroyed by own crew
2 January 1944 - 5 - 8 - Destroyed by own crew
19-21 January 1944 - 2 - 6 - Evacuated for depot-level maintenance

Schneider's book offers a better idea of the overall actions of the company. To cut a long story short, throughout January anywhere from 2-6 Tigers were operational at any given time. The only KC winners in this time were Wittmann (who got oak leaves in the same month) and his gunner Bobby Woll. Not every kill is recorded, but the company is said to have destroyed 343 tanks, 8 assault guns and 255 AT guns since it's formation by 17 January '44. Of the kills that are for the company in January, Schneider records about 75 kills (34 for one day alone, the 13th). There were probably more not mentioned in Tigers in Combat. Wittmann is said to have destroyed 61 tanks between 7-30 January. I personally find this a bit odd, as this would mean Wittmann would have had to account for about 30-50% of the company's kills for the whole month. Of course, I'd need other histories of the company to turn intuitive skepticism into reality.

I've written elsewhere about the successes of the 13./SS-Panzer-Regiment 1. Even applying the most conservative kills reductions, the actions of the unit are quite remarkable. I've written more about this here.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1934635

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