Joachim Peiper's tactics

[Harro]

here is the deal,
if westermeier or danny parker quoted figures from rudolf lehmann to show peiper's losses: legit!
if i quoted figures from rudolf lehmann plus M. Wood & J. Dugdale to show peiper's losses: nothing to do with the lost.

You cited combat-ready vs in repair figures. They don't tell us anything about the number of tanks lost on the 10th of December 1943 or any of the preceeding days. These figues have been discussed many times before. I've got better things to do with my time than going through the same arguments over and over again.

[jacobstuart]

They don't tell us anything about the number of tanks lost on the 10th of December 1943 or any of the preceeding days.

A(combat-ready)+B(in-repair)=C(total holding figures)

4 Dec.C - 10 Dec.C = D(total lost during 4-10, or at least until the end of 9)

any problem with your basic math? or did westermeier cite anything legit about the losses on the 10 dec 1943?

[jacobstuart]

Wolfgang Schneider: An antitank-gun belt is engaged outside of Krasnoborki. Operational tigers:4.
Patrick Agte: the tanks fighting the antitank gun positions began to take losses.
Werner Kindler: the panzer which engaged these anti-tank positions suffered casualties.
Rudolf Lehmann: counterattack against the left flank of II./2 Pzg.Regt... divisional commander ordered to suspend the attack. (hrs later) the armoured force came under heavy anti-tank fire from the eastern edge of Краснобірка, and the attack had to be broken off.
Theodor Wisch: attacking across a wide plain, devoid any cover against a fortified town demands a careful coordination of all the movements of the infantries and panzers with the firing plan of all the heavy weapons...the armoured force must make the move at high speed.

westermeier: turkey shoot! and must be headstrong Peiper without taking care of the tactical situation and the strength of the defensive fire.

*Theodor Wisch recommended peiper for oak leave: as the village couldn’t be bypassed due to the unfavorable terrain conditions, and the bridge in the village had to fall into our hands undamaged. Peiper personally carried out a night attack with the spw battalion on Pekartschina”…

yeah hell of the job mr. westermeier

[Michael Kenny]

According to The Leibstandarte III and Waffen SS Panzer Units in Normandy, 1944: Orders of Battle, the KG Peiper suffered 10 total losses (2 tigers, 4 panthers, 4 panzer IVs) from 4-10 December, 1943.................. lie.

Problems with Tiger losses:
If you consult Schneider you see 2 Tigers reported 'blown up' on 15/11/43,
1 KO on 8/12/43,
1 KO on 19/11/43,
7 'blown up' on 24/12/43,
1 'blown up' on 28/12/43
2 blown up on 29/12/43
That is 14 Tigers lost. The returns for 31/12/45 show 2+19 Tigers a total of 21. Add the 14 lost and you get a start total of 35-at least 9 more than reality.
This proves (in the case of Tigers) some of the destroyed tanks were carried forward in the totals when they were in fact losses.

[Harro]

or at least until the end of 9)

There you go, I knew the penny would drop at some point. You'll need the figures for the 11th of December. And even then - as Michael pointed out and as has been discussed time and time again in this forum - you cannot rely on the accuracy of the figures.

[jacobstuart]

According to The Leibstandarte III and Waffen SS Panzer Units in Normandy, 1944: Orders of Battle, the KG Peiper suffered 10 total losses (2 tigers, 4 panthers, 4 panzer IVs) from 4-10 December, 1943.................. lie.

Problems with Tiger losses:
If you consult Schneider you see 2 Tigers reported 'blown up' on 15/11/43,
1 KO on 8/12/43,
1 KO on 19/11/43,
7 'blown up' on 24/12/43,
1 'blown up' on 28/12/43
2 blown up on 29/12/43
That is 14 Tigers lost. The returns for 31/12/45 show 2+19 Tigers a total of 21. Add the 14 lost and you get a start total of 35-at least 9 more than reality.
This proves (in the case of Tigers) some of the destroyed tanks were carried forward in the totals when they were in fact losses.

haha first, my range included only 7 days. Your range included over 1 month and you question about my figures is smaller than yours?

[jacobstuart]

you cannot rely on the accuracy of the figures.

so what exactly westermeier relied on to claim his turkey shoot in 10th december except citing operational tanks figures from Rudolf Lehmann?

[jacobstuart]

as Michael pointed out

Curtesy by Michael Kenny saving my trouble, we already knew 1 tiger was KO in 8 december. 1 down. ss-obersturmführer Hans Sübing’s Panther was also KO in the same day december. 2 down, 7 to go. And here we go, how many assaults KG peiper launched during 4-9 december? Even in 10 december they launched 2 twice, so best guess, if all 7 tanks KO during one assault in 10th, what’s the odds? Errr… westermeier must knew it, for a historian he is really bold.

[jacobstuart]

I do believe that we would not even be discussing Pierper's skill and tactics if it wasn't for the crimes in Belgium.

well, i guess we don't include the Royal Netherlands Army and me.

[Cult Icon]

could you give a synopsis of Lehmann's 1.SSLAH version of part of 48.PzK's counterstrike?

[jacobstuart]

That is 14 Tigers lost. The returns for 31/12/45 show 2+19 Tigers a total of 21. Add the 14 lost and you get a start total of 35-at least 9 more than reality.

and for Christ's sake during 19th-21st January 1944 regrouping they hold 9 tigers in all conditions. -The Leibstandarte III, p.408

14+9=23 you got serious problem with your basic math.

[jacobstuart]

could you give a synopsis of Lehmann's 1.SSLAH version of part of 48.PzK's counterstrike?

next time maybe, forget about my sandwich.

[Harro]

In "jaconstuart"s book one thesis by one Dutch major equals "The Royal Dutch Army" and it is somehow very important for him to remind me over and over again. Probably because I'm Dutch en he somehow thinks I give a toss about that thesis. I've given presentations for officer candidates of the Dutch armed forces and I've accompanied them on tactical exercises in the Ardennes to provide historical background with the training tasks they had to perform. "Relevance" of Peiper's leadership was never touched upon during these meetings and trips. Twenty-six pages and this topic still runs around in circles with the same old questions being asked, answered, disputed, proven, asked again, disputed again, and it's getting tiresome. I'll leave it for now and will only return to the discussion if new material or insights are presented.

[Michael Kenny]

14+9=25 you got serious problem with your basic math.

Not as serious a problem as a Unit that starts out with 25 Tigers, has 14 total losses but then list having 21 on hand.
The only way the figures 'add up' is if total losses are still being kept as 'in repair'.

[jacobstuart]

1 KO on 8/12/43,
1 KO on 19/11/43,
7 'blown up' on 24/12/43,
1 'blown up' on 28/12/43
2 blown up on 29/12/43

That is 14 Tigers lost. The returns for 31/12/45 show 2+19 Tigers a total of 21. Add the 14 lost and you get a start total of 35-at least 9 more than reality.

lol look we both confused by numbers, but never mind when the figures favor me.

first, there were 12 total losses happened during 8-29/12.
second, In Tigers in Combat II they hold 13 (already deducted 2 losses in same day)tigers in all conditions in 29/12, not 21, and the combine is 25. The 13th schwere company hold total 27 tigers on list when they marched on east from italy. so what's your point?