Joachim Peiper's tactics

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jacobstuart
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#391

Post by jacobstuart » 30 Aug 2016, 14:51

Harro wrote:somehow very important for him to remind me over and over again.
never mind if that upsets you mate! :lol:
Harro wrote:I've given presentations for officer candidates of the Dutch armed forces
a westermeier disciple give presentation for officer candidates? humm good luck to the Dutch army.
Harro wrote:I'll leave it for now and will only return to the discussion if new material or insights are presented.
i have a parting gift for you. Check on Zhitomir-Berdichev Volume 1 p.77 and Leibstandarte III p.367, there was a total holding figures of 160, including tigers, panthers and IVs, which means another 10 total losses happened during 10-20th (or 11-20 th) December. Fortunately we knew the figures were issue at 2330 in 20th December. So, 10 tanks total losses during 11 days ( 10 days).

2 tanks was ko in 14th;
1 tiger was ko in 19th;
2 panzer IVs was ko in 20th.
5 down,5 to go (may they fulfill your turkey shoot which supposed happened in 10/12).

Now we have 2 casualty counting duration: 4-10 dec. and 10(11)-20 dec. wow, wondering the “turkey shoot” will happen in which one duration? westermeier must knew it. oh wait. im sorry. you can forget about that because he will do nothing except citing operational figures from Rudolf Lehmann. :cry:

Michael Kenny
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#392

Post by Michael Kenny » 30 Aug 2016, 18:59

Tigers in Combat II they hold 13 (already deducted 2 losses in same day)tigers in all conditions in 29/12, not 21, and the combine is 25. The 13th schwere company hold total 27 tigers on list when they marched on east from italy. so what's your point?
My point is this.
Start total = 27

Tiger losses to 29 Dec 1943 = 14

Returns for Dec 31 1943 = 2+19 =21

21 + 14 = 35

35 is 8 more than 27.

Now if you want to claim the Tiger losses on Dec 28/28 (3 in total) were 'too late' to be included in the 31/12 totals let us leave them out and try it that way.
21 + 11 = 32

32 is 5 more than 27.

The losses as given in Schneider are his running total and not official figures.
The official returns show holdings that, after losses are factored back in, are greater than the start total.


jacobstuart
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#393

Post by jacobstuart » 16 Sep 2016, 18:49

The losses as given in Schneider are his running total and not official figures.
The official returns show holdings that...
official returns from where that should be considered as more authority than Herr Schneider? Bundesarchiv?
Returns for Dec 31 1943 = 2+19 =21
*Compare with Stephen Barratt's quotes: 20th December, 3 operational; 17 in repair, 20 total.
*Compare with Schneider's quotes: The newest reinforcement, 5 new Tigers, didn't arrive the troop until 29 February 1944. And again, the total holding figures in 29th December was 13.

First, it's as same as Schneider's quotes.
1 KO on 8/12/43,
1 KO on 19/11/43,
7 'blown up' on 24/12/43,
1 'blown up' on 28/12/43
2 blown up on 29/12/43
Second, first you said 1, now 3?
Now if you want to claim the Tiger losses on Dec 28/28 (3 in total)
Third, stick to Schneider's sources all the way, then suddenly something came out nowhere.

*Compare with Schneider's quotes: only Unterscharführer Sadzio's Tiger total lost in 28 December.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#394

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Sep 2016, 19:07

jacobstuart wrote:
official returns from where that should be considered as more authority than Herr Schneider? Bundesarchiv?
You were told where when I first introduced them (Aug 28). However as Schneider gives no real information as to where his totals come from how are you able to say he has more authority?

jacobstuart
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#395

Post by jacobstuart » 24 Sep 2016, 04:35

funny. you don't even bother to quote the name of author for your data while Schneider owns the most integrated documents so far.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#396

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 Sep 2016, 04:57

jacobstuart wrote:funny. you don't even bother to quote the name of author for your data while Schneider owns the most integrated documents so far.

I did tell you the author. It was here

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p2009107

and it is obvious you are just trying to confuse the issue with your feigned inorance.
As for Schneider and his 'intergrated documents':

TIC II.

Notice anything odd about the 2 entries for St Lambert Sur Dives?

Page 260 Aug 10, SS 101

In an assault of the South Alberta Regt at St Lambert a single Tiger is knocked out by infantry in close combat

Page 332 Aug 19, SS 102

A single Tiger is destroyed in close combat by infantry of the South Alberta Reg advancing on St Lambert sur Dive


It gets even worse. The tank he references is not even a Tiger but a Pz IV.
St Lambert- (8).jpg
Check the tracks and the muzzle brake.
St Lambert uioggg.jpg
The 'South Alberta Reg.' ( 29th Armoured Recce regiment or SAR) was not an infantry Unit in 1944, It was a tank Reg.

If you want my advice use Schneider as a primer. He gives a good overview but he falls down badly on the detail.

jacobstuart
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#397

Post by jacobstuart » 24 Sep 2016, 06:11

Michael Kenny wrote: I did tell you the author. It was here
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p2009107
if you say you combined the Panther numbers regardless of the fact Peiper had never enough men to operate them, yeah i remember.
If you want my advice use Schneider as a primer. He gives a good overview but he falls down badly on the detail.
you don't buy it only because he reports casualties lower, though it this case we might even revise lower Schneider's data to close the reality.

EugE
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#398

Post by EugE » 24 Sep 2016, 08:29

jacobstuart wrote: so did he have mission report, veteran interview, official doc copy or a black and white to support his claim?

4 december 1943
type:fit-for-combat/under-repair
Tiger 4/21
Panthers 28/52
Panzer IVs 30/44

9 december
type:fit-for-combat/under-repair
Tigers 4/20
Panthers 6/70
Panzer IVs 8/62

10 december 1943
type: fit-for-combat/under-repair
Tigers: -/-
Panthers: 5/71
Panzer IVs: 12/57
Attachments
0442.jpg
0179.jpg
0162.jpg
0046.jpg
Look for it and you will find it...

jacobstuart
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#399

Post by jacobstuart » 26 Sep 2016, 13:54

Michael Kenny wrote:If you want my advice use Schneider as a primer. He gives a good overview but he falls down badly on the detail.
Image

talking about falls down while marking 93 panzer-iii under Leibstandarte in november 1943.

histan
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#400

Post by histan » 26 Sep 2016, 15:52

Even I can see its a mistake in the tabulation - a fault of the publisher. Just shift one column to the right.

Regards

John

Michael Kenny
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#401

Post by Michael Kenny » 26 Sep 2016, 16:09

jacobstuart wrote:
talking about falls down while marking 93 panzer-iii under Leibstandarte in november 1943.
This was explained to you 5 months ago.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p2009220

It is a typesetting error. Notice the '4' on its own to the extreme left in that line.

Move every number one place to the right and you get the correct totals -- 93 Pz IV - 96 Panther - 23 Tiger.

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Kingfish
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#402

Post by Kingfish » 26 Sep 2016, 17:46

Michael Kenny wrote: Notice anything odd about the 2 entries for St Lambert Sur Dives?

Page 260 Aug 10, SS 101

In an assault of the South Alberta Regt at St Lambert a single Tiger is knocked out by infantry in close combat

Page 332 Aug 19, SS 102

A single Tiger is destroyed in close combat by infantry of the South Alberta Reg advancing on St Lambert sur Dive


The 'South Alberta Reg.' ( 29th Armoured Recce regiment or SAR) was not an infantry Unit in 1944, It was a tank Reg.
Wouldn't it seem logical to consider all attachments subordinate to, and therefore part of, the SAR during this operation?

After all, the historical record for the two Canadian battle groups for phase 2 of Op Totalize were known as Halpenny and Worthington force respectively, even though both contained roughly equal parts tank and infantry.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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eindhoven
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#403

Post by eindhoven » 06 Oct 2016, 21:39

What do any of these strength returns have to do with Joachim Peiper's Tactics?

Zero.

Why doesn't a mod split off this pissing contest?

Miles Krogfus
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#404

Post by Miles Krogfus » 11 Oct 2016, 21:59

Herbert Kuhlmann, who led the 1 SS Division's independent Panther unit in the late fall 1943 to early 1944, also graduated in January 1936 from SS-Fuhrerschule Braunschweig with 32nd in class ranking compared to Peiper's 16th. Kuhlmann "2. In der Taktik genugende" (satisfactory), Peiper "ziemlich gute" (quite good). As well in that January, Max Wunsche graduated from SS-Fuhrerschule Tolz with "2. In der Taktik gute" (good). Thus Peiper as a student was rated better in tactics then both these fellow 1 SS divisional unit CO's.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Joachim Peiper's tactics

#405

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 14 Oct 2016, 17:13

Miles Krogfus wrote:Herbert Kuhlmann, who led the 1 SS Division's independent Panther unit in the late fall 1943 to early 1944, also graduated in January 1936 from SS-Fuhrerschule Braunschweig with 32nd in class ranking compared to Peiper's 16th. Kuhlmann "2. In der Taktik genugende" (satisfactory), Peiper "ziemlich gute" (quite good). As well in that January, Max Wunsche graduated from SS-Fuhrerschule Tolz with "2. In der Taktik gute" (good). Thus Peiper as a student was rated better in tactics then both these fellow 1 SS divisional unit CO's.
This is indeed an extremely relevant and interesting piece of information. I think Jochen Peiper's tactical prowess and combat effectiveness have never been in serious doubt. The only issue may be with his relative strengths as a panzer commander vs leader of a pz grenadier unit.

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