Joachim Peiper's tactics

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Harro
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#91

Post by Harro » 01 Dec 2009, 08:55

WEISWEILER wrote:of course you wont. and you wont give any sources for your 'first hand' story how the actual leibstandarte felt about air superiority. a bit poor, don't you think? you can tell anyone about your 'contacts', but do they really exist? i dought it.
LOL, well, fortunately those who matter know my sources and know which veterans help(ed) me with my research. And they do respect the fact that I'm careful with giving their names to random forum members.
WEISWEILER wrote:good luck with your query. i'm ready to review my opinion after... you've found a publisher.
LOL again, who says I haven't found one yet? :lol:

Nevermind, your trolling is obvious and tends to be boring.

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Harro
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#92

Post by Harro » 01 Dec 2009, 08:59

Rob - wssob2 wrote:WEISWEILER, you sound like a spoil-sport, but I agree - Harro - I want to see your work published too! I know it will be great. - Rob
:wink: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1403131


Jochen S.
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#93

Post by Jochen S. » 01 Dec 2009, 11:58

Kurt,

You can be sure of Harro's contacts with veterans. Over the years we visited serveral at their homes or met them in the Ardennes together.I have also seen his correspondence with some others. No need to question that.

For me personally It becomes very annoying to see this type of discussion. People always know best from reading a book. I wonder how many of you who discuss Peiper and his battlegroup during the bulge have talked with veterans of both sides who truly experienced it? - who survived the Malmedy Massacre? Talked with Belgian civilians who experienced the horror during those days? - or even visited the actual places where it all happened? - and in addition visited the relevant Archives? I believe not many - but everyone knows best.

Mind you - anyone is entitled to have an opinion but if someone doesn't agree with your point of view than don't call him a liar or act like a wiseacre simply 'cause you read a book or surfed the net. There are infact people who do know better.


Jochen S.

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WEISWEILER
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#94

Post by WEISWEILER » 01 Dec 2009, 16:40

oh well... call me what you want. i could add a whole lot on the actual specifics about historical research here. but it's obvious that i met a small clan here who doesn't like their theories to be critizised in an open minded way and, never seen this before, who likes to insult people who try to discuss. sorry, but this debate is poor. any further reaction is useless.

/kurt

TH Albright
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#95

Post by TH Albright » 01 Dec 2009, 16:52

"Peiper reminds me of another controversial military figure from another era - Civil War Confederate Lt. General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Forrest was too a renowned military commander, famous (like Peiper) for his mobile warfare exploits. He was also a slave owner, and implicated in the massacre of black Union Army POWs after the Battle of Ft. Pillow. He was also a founding member of the KKK. Just as you can't have a discussion about Forrest without getting into the criminality of the Confederate cause, you can't successfully extricate Peiper from the criminality of the III Reich"

Good analogy, Rob..I can think of another...Banastre Tarlton, the British light troops/cavalry commander who "operated" under Cornwallis in the Carolinas during the brutal latter stages of the American Revolution. This theatre of war was a precursor to the the "total war" concept and Tarlton heartily embraced the burning of villages and execution of prisoners as part of his operational credo. Like Peiper, Tarlton was dashing, brave and charismatic, all qualities which made him a darling of the British and Loyalist press. Also, like Peiper, when taken out of his element, he was flawed as a commander, not performing up to snuff at major pitched battles at Cowpens and Guilford Courthouse. One of his last actions was an unsuccessful attempt to kidnap Thomas Jefferson. In behavior contrary to Tarlton's reputation, Thomas Jefferson later noted, "I did not suffer by him. On the contrary he behaved very genteely with me. ... He gave strict orders to Capt. Mcleod to suffer nothing to be injured." Like Peiper, he never regretted the political views which guided his actions during the war, but unlike Peiper, he was a major political player in Parliment for 30 years after the war and ardent defender of the slave trade (his brothers were involved in the West Indian slave trade). I will give Peiper credit for not becoming a schill for HIAG and keeping to himself after his release. He seemed to know his "day was done" and his Thoreau-like existence in Traves (noted marvelously in Parker's 1st chapter) had a certain pathos and was an almost dignified contrast to the beer-thumping, self serving exhibitionism of some W-SS veterans groups. Of course, his relative unpopularity in Waffen SS circles and notoriety may have contributed to his reluctance to be an HAIG front man. I want to note both Rob and Harro's excellent contributions to the Peiper debate..looking forward to Parker's book. Peiper's life indeed is the stuff of Greek tragedy, only his fatal flaws were set against the modern backdrop of mass indoctrination and industrialized murder. I don't think it was coincidence that Peiper's unit in Northen Italy was chosen implement the deportation to Auschwitz of the region's remaining Jews in the Fall 1943.

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Harro
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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#96

Post by Harro » 01 Dec 2009, 17:28

WEISWEILER wrote:oh well... call me what you want. i could add a whole lot on the actual specifics about historical research here. but it's obvious that i met a small clan here who doesn't like their theories to be critizised in an open minded way and, never seen this before, who likes to insult people who try to discuss. sorry, but this debate is poor. any further reaction is useless.
What's this, actually you don't try to discuss at all. You just keep repeating that the allied air forces were important but doing so you bring up all this information about the allied air activity in general during the battle of the Bulge but the topic is Kampgruppe Peiper. Don't you agree that some substantial proof should be provided that Peiper was "finished off" by "Typhoons" rather than other German units near Sankt Vith or Bastogne? We are very open minded to all substantial evidence you can provide regarding allied air attacks on Peiper. But you just keep steering away from that simple request. We've given you the information we have: a dozen vehicles destroyed by American P-47's on December 18, 1844, during a two hour airraid. Two of the destroyed vehicles were tanks. It cost Peiper some time but after that there was no further air activity against his Kampfgruppe because the weather was too poor. However, after that day American ground forces managed to stop Peiper at Stoumont, cut his supply line at Stavelot and encircled his troops in La Gleize. In the end he was trapped without fuel or ammo and retreated to Wanne leaving all armor and heavy equipment behind. A total defeat. No matter what the allied air forces did in other sectors of the Bulge, you cannot honestly say that Peiper was " finished off" by the airforce. Just admit a mistake when you're wrong.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#97

Post by Dutto1 » 01 Dec 2009, 18:38

Hi all

Robin Cross in my opinion is not a bad author,but i would nt call him an authority on The Battle of the Bulge.Weisweiler if you want to read a top book on the battle you should read J P Pallud s THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE THEN AND NOW ,the book is one of the best on the subject.The book will give you the reasons in black and white why KG Peiper failed i think you will find it wasn t the impact of airpower.Cross writes ok books but ill give you an example-he published Citadel in 1993 about the Kursk battle,he at the same time advised the BBC on a documentary on the same subject.For reasons unknown he failed to use the very good first hand accounts of the battle instead he relied on decades old information alongside new research,so his books are not top class,though that is my opinion.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#98

Post by Jochen S. » 02 Dec 2009, 15:27

Kurt,

Don't take it to personal. My second remark was more general. It is my personal opinion that - during a discussion - one has to be honest enough to at least try to adjust an opnion after a more knowledgeable poster has shown him not entirely correct or plain wrong. I know that some claim to know all after reading a book or internet-site, but infact there is a little bit more to it.

So, if you would like to "add a whole lot on the actual specifics about historical research" - please do!!

Jochen S.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#99

Post by andrek » 08 Dec 2009, 19:55

Harro wrote:
WEISWEILER wrote:of course you wont. and you wont give any sources for your 'first hand' story how the actual leibstandarte felt about air superiority. a bit poor, don't you think? you can tell anyone about your 'contacts', but do they really exist? i dought it.
LOL, well, fortunately those who matter know my sources and know which veterans help(ed) me with my research. And they do respect the fact that I'm careful with giving their names to random forum members.
WEISWEILER wrote:good luck with your query. i'm ready to review my opinion after... you've found a publisher.
LOL again, who says I haven't found one yet? :lol:

Nevermind, your trolling is obvious and tends to be boring.
Are you a historian or a hobbyist? Knowing a veteran does not automatically mean that you are a researcher. :roll:

The title of this thread is:

Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

A historian would let us know his research result. A hobbyist not. Are you a poseur, mean you know veterans?


The title of this thread is:

Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

If interested to learn more about the killer, the slaughterer Peiper was, buy the book http://www.amazon.com/Joachim-Peiper-Bi ... 430&sr=8-1 and if you can, buy edition 1 and 2 to get the point, because the author changed his opinon from edition 1 to 2 on his findings regarding the slaughterer Peiper. And no, this time the author is not a fanboy like Agte or the two others. Thanks for reading.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#100

Post by Harro » 08 Dec 2009, 22:48

andrek wrote:Are you a historian or a hobbyist? Knowing a veteran does not automatically mean that you are a researcher. :roll:
Well, I suggest you use the search function to see what I've posted over the past decade :roll:
andrek wrote:A historian would let us know his research result. A hobbyist not. Are you a poseur, mean you know veterans?
Partly true, but even historians often choose to keep some details for themselves to use for (future) publications instead of giving everything away on forums. Note that many fellow historians and researchers already say that I give away too much of my information in forums. But perhaps you could give me the specifics of what you want me to share regarding this topic.
andrek wrote:If interested to learn more about the killer, the slaughterer Peiper was, buy the book http://www.amazon.com/Joachim-Peiper-Bi ... 430&sr=8-1 and if you can, buy edition 1 and 2 to get the point, because the author changed his opinon from edition 1 to 2 on his findings regarding the slaughterer Peiper. And no, this time the author is not a fanboy like Agte or the two others. Thanks for reading.
You'll find my name in several footnotes and in the credits of Jens' book. Seems I shared my "research result" with somebody you approve with ;)

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#101

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 09 Dec 2009, 07:47

Hi TH - Banastre Tarlton! WOW! :D You just took a good analogy and made it great!

A compare/contrast piece on Forrest, Tarlton and Peiper - Let me know when you want to co-author a paper for the MHQ! - Rob

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#102

Post by TH Albright » 09 Dec 2009, 21:13

Thanks Rob..it occured to me that part of the "allure" of all three commanders to certain elements of posterity was the "bad boy" image, Peiper fan-boys not withstanding! Like the old Oakland Raider Football team, the take no prisoners mentality has a certain fascination to our darker side. In the context of the Cold War, many in both the US and W. Germany were willing to look beyond Peiper's faults and create a persona that wasn't there, or was only partly there, to suit our own anxieties about the Soviet threat; as Peiper reportedly told Hal McCown.."we are fighting your fight"... did resonate to my younger self and my WW II-era US Army officer father. You also get an echo of that from Michael Reynolds in his well-balanced books on Peiper and the Waffen SS in general. During that era, I was more sympathetic to him than I am now..and the literature about his career was known to me then -- Weingartner in 1977 highlighted his career as Himmler's adjutant, the burning of Russian villages, the witness to T4 murder and Polish forced resettlement, Boves, etc. Some of the recent scholarship, like Carlo Gentile's work on German war crimes in Italy, adds to the picture but not that much. I thought it was funny in some old thread, some poster said Peiper wasn't someone you would want to have over for dinner, but was he guilty of all these things....the problem is Peiper probably would have been a damn interesting and charming dinner guest, well-educated with a biting sense of humor, but that doesn't detract from his guilt. Guys like Peiper and Heydrich are always more interesting than dull automatons and drab functionaries like Josef Kramer and Adolph Eichmann. Just, they should have known better....

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#103

Post by j keenan » 03 Jan 2010, 12:20

Ref. Blowtorch nick name,
"without orders to do so,on 3rd March the blowtorchs were
brocken out:the torches,which were used to preheat the engines
of the vehicles,were turned into 'flame throwers.'They spewed a
jet of gasoline 8 to 15 meters long,and this was ignited,producing
a jet of flame.Everone feared a jet of flame,and the Russians in
particular.In this way Stanichnoye was attacked and taken on
4th March,1943.
After which they were known as the Blowtorch Battalion and the
Blowtorch became the unofficial tactical sighn painted on the sides
of vehicles.
Source Westemeier's book on Peiper.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#104

Post by general g » 29 Sep 2010, 16:45

Attacking at night,using high speed and firing all weapons including flamethrowers to panic the red army defenders.
Good tactic in view of the vulnerability of APC.Was very successfull.

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Re: Peiper's SPW tactics on the Eastern Front

#105

Post by general g » 01 Oct 2010, 08:06

alan wrote:NOX NOCTOM, "reconnaissance by fire" was a basic part of German "Blitzkrieg" tactics. One would drive fast and keep one's guns firing to locate resistance, and small pockets of resistance might be ignored, in order to get behind and disrupt the enemy lines. One did not stop to take prisoners, one just told them to drop their arms and walk to the rear. If one met stronger resistance one would go arround it. Calvary tactics up-dated for SPW's. This is not just a WSS tactic, the Army ( e.g. Rommel) also pushed this doctrine. Even if you do not intend to start fires, your tracers will start fires. War, in itself is brutal, the purpose is to kill people and destroy anything that may be of use to the enemy. The war in Russia was extra brutal, both sides committed atrocities on an everyday basis.
Peiper was noted for being very agressive in the attack. That is what his superiors expected of him. Some of his contempories thought that Peiper was too willing to lose troops and equipment and did not want to have their troops under Peiper's command. Peiper's superiors however, thought that Peiper's losses were acceptable and promoted him. No matter which side of this argument one takes, one has to admit that Peiper led from the front and was a very brave man.
Many times Peiper was ordered to forget his flanks and just push through the enemy lines. In the 'Battle of the Bulge' Peiper was told to 'just get to the Meuse with one tank'. His superiors did not care about his losses, they relied on his aggressiveness in the attack.
There is a lot of sene in this although not always correct in the details.There were certainly in general no tactics which were specific to the waffen SS. Waffen SS officers were trained at army schools and Waffen SS panzer divisions were subordinated to the army for training.

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