"Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
On 1 july 1943,DR had
PzI :1
PzIII:70
PzIV :33
PzVI:14
StuG 40 :33
T34 :26
Marder:12
Hummel:6
Wespe :12
Bison:12
Source :this forum :viewtopic.php?=73435&start =0 (post by Christopher Awender)
PzI :1
PzIII:70
PzIV :33
PzVI:14
StuG 40 :33
T34 :26
Marder:12
Hummel:6
Wespe :12
Bison:12
Source :this forum :viewtopic.php?=73435&start =0 (post by Christopher Awender)
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
EugE - There was no III./SS-Panzer-Rgt 2 during the battle of Kursk. Das Reich's SS-Pz.Rgt 2 consisted of two Panzer battalions, the I./ and II./ battalions. The I./ SS-Pz.Rgt was in Germany training with the new Panther tanks during the battle of Kursk therefore all of Das Reich's tanks were in II./SS-Pz.-Rgt 2 during Kursk. The 8.SS-Pz.-Rgt 2 was the division's Tiger kompanie.EugE wrote:Hello mr. George M. Nipe
Thanks for your info. This info is known for me!!! I just want to know about SPW and PzSpW during the Kharkov and Kursk.
After the reorganizing of DR she had SPW battalion and SPW company in the rec. battalion, but how much it is not clear to me.
Also the III tank battalion ( befor it was antitank bat.) was used together with heavy company in the Kursk battle.
Do you have info about PzKpfw V at 10.09.43 of the Tank Regiment Das Reich? I search details about Kolomak battle
At Kolomak II./Rgt Der Führer, I./SS-Pz Art-Rgt. and one Panzer company were 8.Armee mobile reserve in Tschudowo in early September. II./SS Pz.-Rgt 2 had its Panzers dug in on the HKL but remained ready to action against main Soviet attack.
George Nipe
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
This from Wood & Dugdale:
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Good afternoon Michael, I don't know where these charts got their information and thus wouldn't accept them as unquestionably accurate. My information regarding Das Reich tanks on 10 July comes from microfilmed copies of the original tank reports type written at Das Reich divisional HQ for transmission to Generalkommando II. SS-Panzer-Korps. These reports are among thousands of pages of information available at the U.S. National Archives. The Tagesmeldungen for 10.7.1943, which was sent to corps headquarters, originated from the division headquarters and was sent (and signed by division 1a SS Sturmbannführer Georg Maier). Maier lists the following tanks as operational.
Panzer III - 33, Panzer IV - 15, Tiger - 1, Befehl Panzer 7, T-34 -7, Stg. III - 26. It can be assumed that they are unquestionably accurate at the time which they were written on 10 July. George Nipe
I
Panzer III - 33, Panzer IV - 15, Tiger - 1, Befehl Panzer 7, T-34 -7, Stg. III - 26. It can be assumed that they are unquestionably accurate at the time which they were written on 10 July. George Nipe
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
I did not notice any great differences with the figures given previously in the thread.
Wood and Dugdale are well known for refusing to share their sources but they are also reputed to have one of the largest collections of German period documentation in the UK. You will find many who simply can not believe anyone has such detailed figures without sight of the originals-something they will never do!
It appears that Wood is now working on his own and he is quites active on Missing Lynx in regards to 1944 Russian Front OOB's
The tables are in their book on Normandy SS Units and I know those 1944 numbers mesh well with Zetterling and others.
Are there any other problems with the numbers they gave?
Wood and Dugdale are well known for refusing to share their sources but they are also reputed to have one of the largest collections of German period documentation in the UK. You will find many who simply can not believe anyone has such detailed figures without sight of the originals-something they will never do!
It appears that Wood is now working on his own and he is quites active on Missing Lynx in regards to 1944 Russian Front OOB's
The tables are in their book on Normandy SS Units and I know those 1944 numbers mesh well with Zetterling and others.
Are there any other problems with the numbers they gave?
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
I had a look in 'Fire Brigades (Kamen Nevenkin, JJF 2008) and the figures D&W give for 30/6/43 match the numbers (page 802) Kamen gives for 1/7/43 in the text but in a chart on page 819 for 1/7/43 gives
Pz III 60(+9)=69..........62........51(+11)=62
Pz IV 28(+6)= 34.........33.........31(+2)=33
Pz IV 12(+2)=14..........14.........12(+2)=14
Maybe the Pz Beo III are being included in Kamen's chart
Pz III 60(+9)=69..........62........51(+11)=62
Pz IV 28(+6)= 34.........33.........31(+2)=33
Pz IV 12(+2)=14..........14.........12(+2)=14
Maybe the Pz Beo III are being included in Kamen's chart
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Michael, I can't find a Panzer report for 30.7.43 for Das Reich in my files. I do have a 26.6.43 report from II.SS-Pz.-Kps to Heeresgruppe Süd which lists following for the division. Pz.III - 48, Pz. IV - 27, Tiger - 10, Befehl Wg. - 7 and T-34 - 15. On 4.7.43 the Tagesmeldung of II.SS-Panzer-Kps to 4.Pz. Armee show the following. Pz. III - 48, Pz. IV - 30, Tiger - 12, T-34 -18 and Bef.Pz - 8. These reports were generated by Generalkommando II. SS-Pz.-Korps 1a Tagebuch Nr. 1224/43 and were sent to both Pz.Armeeoberkommando 4 and VIII.Flieger-Korps. The 4.7.1943 information originated from was sent on 4.7.1943 @ 1945 Uhr.
I am very curious to know where the numbers from Nevenkin and D+W were said to have originated from. Do they give any source?
I can give you the exact source for mine. The 4.7. report can be found in National Archives microfilm record group T-354, roll 605, frame 000495.
I can't explain the discrepancies, however, I am looking at the copy of the 4.7 report in front of me right now. The corps didn't print up ten different tank number reports every day just for fun, so I will assume that this is the correct one and any other numbers are either mistaken or have been derived from secondary sources.
George Nipe
I am very curious to know where the numbers from Nevenkin and D+W were said to have originated from. Do they give any source?
I can give you the exact source for mine. The 4.7. report can be found in National Archives microfilm record group T-354, roll 605, frame 000495.
I can't explain the discrepancies, however, I am looking at the copy of the 4.7 report in front of me right now. The corps didn't print up ten different tank number reports every day just for fun, so I will assume that this is the correct one and any other numbers are either mistaken or have been derived from secondary sources.
George Nipe
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
No, Sir! It is Frame 000470, 000495 is the Meldung of 5.7.1943I can give you the exact source for mine. The 4.7. report can be found in National Archives microfilm record group T-354, roll 605, frame 000495.
By the way, as Sylvester Stadlers 'Die Offensive gegen Kursk 1943' mostly consists of this KTB of II.SS-Pz.Korps you can find it there, too(p.34)
Jan-Hendrik
EDIT: Frame 000452 is a Meldung of 2.7.1943
EDIT 2: Frame 000411 includes a Meldung of 30.6.1943
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Jan-Hendrik. You are exactly right regarding frame 000495 and 000470. Thanks for the correction. George Nipe
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
According to the documents of the DR the anti tank battalion had been converted to III./SS-PzRgt 2 from the 30 of March 1943 and was equipped by captured T-34.George M. Nipe wrote:EugE - There was no III./SS-Panzer-Rgt 2 during the battle of Kursk. Das Reich's SS-Pz.Rgt 2 consisted of two Panzer battalions, the I./ and II./ battalions. The I./ SS-Pz.Rgt was in Germany training with the new Panther tanks during the battle of Kursk therefore all of Das Reich's tanks were in II./SS-Pz.-Rgt 2 during Kursk. The 8.SS-Pz.-Rgt 2 was the division's Tiger kompanie.EugE wrote:Hello mr. George M. Nipe
Thanks for your info. This info is known for me!!! I just want to know about SPW and PzSpW during the Kharkov and Kursk.
After the reorganizing of DR she had SPW battalion and SPW company in the rec. battalion, but how much it is not clear to me.
Also the III tank battalion ( befor it was antitank bat.) was used together with heavy company in the Kursk battle.
Do you have info about PzKpfw V at 10.09.43 of the Tank Regiment Das Reich? I search details about Kolomak battle
At Kolomak II./Rgt Der Führer, I./SS-Pz Art-Rgt. and one Panzer company were 8.Armee mobile reserve in Tschudowo in early September. II./SS Pz.-Rgt 2 had its Panzers dug in on the HKL but remained ready to action against main Soviet attack.
George Nipe
III./SS-PzRgt 2
9 company 2 T-IV/G-H. ( this structure was established from memory of Oscha. Josef Naber)
1 platoon 1 T-IV/G-H, 4 T-34.
2 platoon 1 T-IV/G-H, 4 T-34.
3 platoon 1 T-IV/G-H, 4 T-34.
4 platoon 1 T-IV/G-H, 4 T-34.
10 company 2 T-III/L60, 11 T-34. (8 T-34 in short term repair).
11 company 17 T-III/L60.
For this case was ordered transfer over posession all AT guns to the DF & D Regiments at 28.05.43.
All self-propelled AT guns (Marders) was included to the Assault guns battalion as 4 AT battery
At that time the 8 company was renamed to the "Schwer", for example all Tiger's had numbers:
stab S01; S02
1 pl. S11-S14
2 pl. S21-S24
3 pl. S31-S34.
The 8 company was included to the II./SS-PzRgt 2.
George Nipe= may I ask for you about accurate information of the DR parts positions at 10-13.09.43. ?
Hi Michael Kenny thanks for the interesting info.
Look for it and you will find it...
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Michael Kenny I don't know about data used D&W,Michael Kenny wrote:I had a look in 'Fire Brigades (Kamen Nevenkin, JJF 2008) and the figures D&W give for 30/6/43 match the numbers (page 802) Kamen gives for 1/7/43 in the text but in a chart on page 819 for 1/7/43 gives
Pz III 60(+9)=69..........62........51(+11)=62
Pz IV 28(+6)= 34.........33.........31(+2)=33
Pz IV 12(+2)=14..........14.........12(+2)=14
Maybe the Pz Beo III are being included in Kamen's chart
but I know about Kamen Nevenkin source, he provide info from Meldung from DR to Gen.Insp.D.Pz.Tr. from 1/7/43
Pz III, Pz IV and Pz VI mentioned in this report included combat-ready and in short-term repair tanks, tanks need in long-term repair not included in this report.
Also Pz Beo III aren't included in Kamen's chart. In Meldung they mentioned in a separate column.
But in Meldung and Kamen's chart included Bef.Pz. III
P.S. D&W data taken from Gen.Qu. 10-day Panzer lage Ost.
http://forum.axishistory.com/download/f ... &mode=view
all data on this page from 10-day Panzer lage Ost.
Unlike data in monthly Meldungen in 10-day Panzer lage Ost mentioned as repair not only AFVs in short repair, but AFVs in short and in long repair together.
And little else, usually time to send a 10-day Panzer Lage reports 24.00 hours (24.00 Uhr or 12 P.M.).
Best regards,
Panzeralex
Last edited by Panzeralex on 07 Jul 2011, 23:49, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
George M. Nipe,George M. Nipe wrote:Michael, I can't find a Panzer report for 30.7.43 for Das Reich in my files. I do have a 26.6.43 report from II.SS-Pz.-Kps to Heeresgruppe Süd which lists following for the division. Pz.III - 48, Pz. IV - 27, Tiger - 10, Befehl Wg. - 7 and T-34 - 15. On 4.7.43 the Tagesmeldung of II.SS-Panzer-Kps to 4.Pz. Armee show the following. Pz. III - 48, Pz. IV - 30, Tiger - 12, T-34 -18 and Bef.Pz - 8. These reports were generated by Generalkommando II. SS-Pz.-Korps 1a Tagebuch Nr. 1224/43 and were sent to both Pz.Armeeoberkommando 4 and VIII.Flieger-Korps. The 4.7.1943 information originated from was sent on 4.7.1943 @ 1945 Uhr.
I am very curious to know where the numbers from Nevenkin and D+W were said to have originated from. Do they give any source?
I can give you the exact source for mine. The 4.7. report can be found in National Archives microfilm record group T-354, roll 605, frame 000495.
I can't explain the discrepancies, however, I am looking at the copy of the 4.7 report in front of me right now. The corps didn't print up ten different tank number reports every day just for fun, so I will assume that this is the correct one and any other numbers are either mistaken or have been derived from secondary sources.
George Nipe
Tagesmeldungen not the only sources about AFVs strength.
Most complete data about AFVs in DR in the begining of operation Citadel you can find and see in O.Qu.Pz.AOK 4 files in NARA or BA-MA (O.Qu. - Ober Quartiermeister),
for example report for 1/7/43 list in DR (also this report list changes in AFvs strength during the reriod 20-30.6.43) mentioned else panzers:
1 Pz II in long-term repair
62 Pz III lg (51 combat-ready and 11 in short-term repair)
9 Beob Pz III - combat-ready
33 Pz IV lg (31 combat-ready and 2 in short-term repair)
14 Pz VI (12 combat-ready, 1 in short-term rapeir and 1 in long term repair)
10 Bef Wg - combat-ready (including 1 Bef Pz I and 9 Bef Pz III)
26 T34 (15 combat-ready and 9 in short-term repair)
and etc
In this report listed all AFVs, including panzers, StuG, SP guns, SP AT guns, SPW and etc.
***
60+9 Pz III in Kamen's chart (and in Meldung DR 1/7/43) - this is the total number of Pz III including Bef.Pz III.
But Meldung not list all Pz III, as we see according O.Qu.Pz.AOK 4 files in DR were:
71 Pz III (51 Pz III combat-ready, 11 Pz III lg in short-term repair and 9 Bef Pz III combat-ready)
and 9 Beob.Pz. III.
Best regards,
Panzeralex
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Panzeralex - may I address to you with one request for the help in definition of the tank losses for 12-14 date of September of 1 mech. corp. during the poltavsko-Kremenchug front offensive operation [8/26/1943 - 9/30/1943]???
I have found out that according to the book of Forchik (also Will Fey and Weidinger) affirm losses about 76 Т-34 at area Kolomak from the 1 mech. corp. (exactly 129 tank brig. and the 9 tank regiment of the 19 mechanized brig.) 12 and 13.09.43
I have found out that according to the book of Forchik (also Will Fey and Weidinger) affirm losses about 76 Т-34 at area Kolomak from the 1 mech. corp. (exactly 129 tank brig. and the 9 tank regiment of the 19 mechanized brig.) 12 and 13.09.43
Look for it and you will find it...
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
EugE, Unfortunately I can't answer your question, because I haven't information about battle actions 1 Mech Corp during September.EugE wrote:Panzeralex - may I address to you with one request for the help in definition of the tank losses for 12-14 date of September of 1 mech. corp. during the poltavsko-Kremenchug front offensive operation [8/26/1943 - 9/30/1943]???
I have found out that according to the book of Forchik (also Will Fey and Weidinger) affirm losses about 76 Т-34 at area Kolomak from the 1 mech. corp. (exactly 129 tank brig. and the 9 tank regiment of the 19 mechanized brig.) 12 and 13.09.43
best regards,
Panzeralex
Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?
Panzeralex do you have data about tanks losses in the II SS Pz.Korp.? I have the inconsistent data on losses in PzKpfw VI in LSSAH - 2 pcs. is it correct ? One has been destroyed and disassembled on spare parts, one more is hard damaged. It is officially lost 1 (how many they were all, before the battle beginning - 13 or 14?)
Look for it and you will find it...