"Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

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Panzeralex
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#31

Post by Panzeralex » 13 Jul 2011, 10:48

EugE wrote:Panzeralex do you have data about tanks losses in the II SS Pz.Korp.? I have the inconsistent data on losses in PzKpfw VI in LSSAH - 2 pcs. is it correct ? One has been destroyed and disassembled on spare parts, one more is hard damaged. It is officially lost 1 (how many they were all, before the battle beginning - 13 or 14?)
EugE, yes I have information about tank losses in the II SS Pz K. As for LSSAH, according Qu. II SS Pz K documents (after action report), during the period 5-18.7.43 LSSAH loss as totall: 1 Pz I, 1 Pz III, 9 Pz IV (including 2 need send to Germany),
1 Pz VI (need send to Germany), 3 StuG, 3 Marder (including 1 need send to Germany).
There were 13 Tiger in LSSAH in the begining of operation Citadel.

best regards
Panzeralex

EugE
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#32

Post by EugE » 21 Jul 2011, 22:28

Panzeralex LAH has transferred to the possession all tanks to DR and Tk after Kursk battle. What's about SPW; PzSpW; assault guns and artillery? They also have been transferred to DR and Tk ?
Look for it and you will find it...


Kelvin
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#33

Post by Kelvin » 22 Jul 2011, 06:57

If Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler and Das Reich could receive their Panther earlier, mayby they could alter the course of battle of Kursk. It was not so wise to concentrate so many panther in Grossdeutschland alone. Perhaps the panther from 10. Pz Brig transfered to 1./SS. Pz.Rgt. 1 and 2./SS. Pz.Rgt2 is better option. :(

Just my two cents.

ljadw
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#34

Post by ljadw » 22 Jul 2011, 09:52

And,why would the absence or presence of a few additional Panthers be decisive ? Unless....
a)you would be a Pz lover
b) you think that Citadelle was mainly a tankbattle,what(IMHO) is totally wrong .
The Germans committed 2700 Pz +StuG,of which some 4 % Panthers.The SU ....8200 tanks and SU .Thus more Panthers would (IMHO) change nothing .
Btw :most of the Panthers were out of action....after the first day .

Kelvin
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#35

Post by Kelvin » 22 Jul 2011, 15:46

Yes, ljadw, I am a panzer lover. Just my wiseful thinking, had German have one year to fully equip their panzer divisions with Panther, maybe they could win the Kursk battle. In 1943, only Leibstandarte, Das Reich, 1. 16. and 23. Panzer Divisions were equipped with Panthers out of 32 Panzer divison in that year.

ljadw
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#36

Post by ljadw » 22 Jul 2011, 19:14

To be a panzerlover is(IMHO) an incurable ilness,that's affecting your ability to make sound judgments :P
But,whatever,in Citadelle only the 10th Pzbrigade had Pantherlosses (some 42).

Panzeralex
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#37

Post by Panzeralex » 23 Jul 2011, 00:37

EugE wrote:Panzeralex LAH has transferred to the possession all tanks to DR and Tk after Kursk battle. What's about SPW; PzSpW; assault guns and artillery? They also have been transferred to DR and Tk ?
EugE, LAH transferred to the DR and TK only panzers, SPW, StuG ans another AFVs remained in the LAH.

best regards,
Panzeralex

EugE
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#38

Post by EugE » 29 Jul 2011, 13:48

Tim Ripley in book Steel Storm - Waffen-SS Panzer Battles on the Eastern Front 1943-1945 has mentioned the date of occurrence of a I./SS-PzRgt 2 on August of 18th?
Look for it and you will find it...

Panzeralex
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#39

Post by Panzeralex » 29 Jul 2011, 21:11

EugE wrote:Tim Ripley in book Steel Storm - Waffen-SS Panzer Battles on the Eastern Front 1943-1945 has mentioned the date of occurrence of a I./SS-PzRgt 2 on August of 18th?
Yes, but not quite, at 22.00 18.8.43 arrived only the first train with detachments of I./SS-PzRgt 2,
so more correct date 19.8.43. On the morning of August 19 the battalion began to be mentioned in battle orders.

regards
Panzeralex

EugE
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#40

Post by EugE » 29 Jul 2011, 22:05

Thanks! Before I had info that the I/ battalion had arrived to the Kharkov area at 22 of August. Unfortunately I again have found nothing about battle Kolomak area at Septembre of 43.
Look for it and you will find it...

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#41

Post by Ponomarenko » 06 Aug 2011, 20:34

Pena V wrote: Ia....................Maier Georg later in Jul 1943 Stdf Heilmann Nikolaus
Not Heilmann, but ostubf Peter Sommer. Also, there are some another mistakes in this list. :)

Qestion:
Who was succeded Otto Weidinger as com. I./Deutschland after Weidinger took command of Aufklär.-Abt. "Das Reich" 5.8.43?

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#42

Post by Ponomarenko » 06 Aug 2011, 20:42

Panzeralex wrote:
EugE wrote:Tim Ripley in book Steel Storm - Waffen-SS Panzer Battles on the Eastern Front 1943-1945 has mentioned the date of occurrence of a I./SS-PzRgt 2 on August of 18th?
Yes, but not quite, at 22.00 18.8.43 arrived only the first train with detachments of I./SS-PzRgt 2,
so more correct date 19.8.43. On the morning of August 19 the battalion began to be mentioned in battle orders.

regards
Panzeralex
All battallion? I thought 19-22.08 only two companies were in Kharkov region - 1st and 2nd, not 3rd and 4th.

EugE
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#43

Post by EugE » 06 Aug 2011, 21:33

Tim Ripley has mentioned about 71 PzKpfw V, it mean that all battalion 19.8 already participated in the battle.
Look for it and you will find it...

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#44

Post by Ponomarenko » 06 Aug 2011, 22:59

EugE wrote:Tim Ripley has mentioned about 71 PzKpfw V, it mean that all battalion 19.8 already participated in the battle.
The First day of battle for I/SS-PzRgt DR was 22.8.43.

Panzeralex
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#45

Post by Panzeralex » 07 Aug 2011, 01:52

Ponomarenko wrote:
All battallion? I thought 19-22.08 only two companies were in Kharkov region - 1st and 2nd, not 3rd and 4th.
Yes,only without one Kp were sent in Kharkov.
21.8.43 report from DR: I./SS Pz Rgt 2 (not with Division DR) with 71 Panther on march
About first battle action, yes, first battle action took place only 22.8.43.
On 02.00 a.m. 22.8.43 two Panther Kp-s were used for local offensive in common with Pz.Gren.Rgt. "Deutschland" in 3 Pz.Div. area.
According evening report (Ia Tagesmeldung) from DR Panther Abt (with out one Kp. in Kharkov) was in battle.

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