Only began to be mentioned in battle orders and not use in combat.EugE wrote:Tim Ripley has mentioned about 71 PzKpfw V, it mean that all battalion 19.8 already participated in the battle.
First employment was only 22.8.43.
Only began to be mentioned in battle orders and not use in combat.EugE wrote:Tim Ripley has mentioned about 71 PzKpfw V, it mean that all battalion 19.8 already participated in the battle.
I think it was repairing/maintance compay, it didn't send to front with battle companies.Panzeralex wrote: Yes,only without one Kp were sent in Kharkov.
21.8.43 report from DR: I./SS Pz Rgt 2 (not with Division DR) with 71 Panther on march
Yes, 04:15 - their first abschuss - 3 T-34.Panzeralex wrote: About first battle action, yes, first battle action took place only 22.8.43.
On 02.00 a.m. 22.8.43 two Panther Kp-s were used for local offensive in common with Pz.Gren.Rgt. "Deutschland" in 3 Pz.Div. area.
According evening report (Ia Tagesmeldung) from DR Panther Abt (with out one Kp. in Kharkov) was in battle.
There is no info about Heillman replacing Mair in my files. Maier was division Ia during operation "Citadelle". Accordingly M.C. Yerger research, Sommer was Maier sucessor, not Heillmann. I think it's little possible that Heilmann took this post.Pena V wrote:Hello Ponomarenko,
Standartenführer (since 21 Jun 1943) Nikolaus Heilmann was assigned to SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Das Reich" for staff training from 22 Jun 1943 to 27 Jul 1943. When Georg Maier became ill in July 1943 Heilmann replaced him for a short period of time until Peter Sommer took over in July 1943 (27 Jul 1943?).
Erm..., in my sourses Horn listed as commander field replacment battailon "Das Reich" from the end of July to the start October 1943.Pena V wrote: About Otto Weidinger. He was WIA 08 Jul 1943 but - at least officially - lead I/"Deutschland" into Aug 1943. He was succeeded by Fritz Horn whose previous command was Feld-Ersatz-Bataillon of "Das Reich". Whether Horn took actually over 08 Jul 1943 or in Aug 1943 (05 Aug 1943?) I am not able to say.
Hi, Alex, did Das Reich division also had 11 operational Marder and 33 operational StuG III on July 1 1943, is my figure correct ?Panzeralex wrote:George M. Nipe,George M. Nipe wrote:Michael, I can't find a Panzer report for 30.7.43 for Das Reich in my files. I do have a 26.6.43 report from II.SS-Pz.-Kps to Heeresgruppe Süd which lists following for the division. Pz.III - 48, Pz. IV - 27, Tiger - 10, Befehl Wg. - 7 and T-34 - 15. On 4.7.43 the Tagesmeldung of II.SS-Panzer-Kps to 4.Pz. Armee show the following. Pz. III - 48, Pz. IV - 30, Tiger - 12, T-34 -18 and Bef.Pz - 8. These reports were generated by Generalkommando II. SS-Pz.-Korps 1a Tagebuch Nr. 1224/43 and were sent to both Pz.Armeeoberkommando 4 and VIII.Flieger-Korps. The 4.7.1943 information originated from was sent on 4.7.1943 @ 1945 Uhr.
I am very curious to know where the numbers from Nevenkin and D+W were said to have originated from. Do they give any source?
I can give you the exact source for mine. The 4.7. report can be found in National Archives microfilm record group T-354, roll 605, frame 000495.
I can't explain the discrepancies, however, I am looking at the copy of the 4.7 report in front of me right now. The corps didn't print up ten different tank number reports every day just for fun, so I will assume that this is the correct one and any other numbers are either mistaken or have been derived from secondary sources.
George Nipe
Tagesmeldungen not the only sources about AFVs strength.
Most complete data about AFVs in DR in the begining of operation Citadel you can find and see in O.Qu.Pz.AOK 4 files in NARA or BA-MA (O.Qu. - Ober Quartiermeister),
for example report for 1/7/43 list in DR (also this report list changes in AFvs strength during the reriod 20-30.6.43) mentioned else panzers:
1 Pz II in long-term repair
62 Pz III lg (51 combat-ready and 11 in short-term repair)
9 Beob Pz III - combat-ready
33 Pz IV lg (31 combat-ready and 2 in short-term repair)
14 Pz VI (12 combat-ready, 1 in short-term rapeir and 1 in long term repair)
10 Bef Wg - combat-ready (including 1 Bef Pz I and 9 Bef Pz III)
26 T34 (15 combat-ready and 9 in short-term repair)
and etc
In this report listed all AFVs, including panzers, StuG, SP guns, SP AT guns, SPW and etc.
***
60+9 Pz III in Kamen's chart (and in Meldung DR 1/7/43) - this is the total number of Pz III including Bef.Pz III.
But Meldung not list all Pz III, as we see according O.Qu.Pz.AOK 4 files in DR were:
71 Pz III (51 Pz III combat-ready, 11 Pz III lg in short-term repair and 9 Bef Pz III combat-ready)
and 9 Beob.Pz. III.
Best regards,
Panzeralex
Yes, your figures is correct.Kelvin wrote: Hi, Alex, did Das Reich division also had 11 operational Marder and 33 operational StuG III on July 1 1943, is my figure correct ?
Hi, ljadw, however, the end of Kursk offensive was caused by German north offensive was stopped by Soviet while the southern offensive went well. Regarding northern panzer strength, it was really weaker than the southern panzer troop. Only LXVII panzerkorps was stronger. Other Panzerkorps like LXVI Panzerkorps only had four infanterie divisions and three StuG Abt and although LXI panzerkorps had Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer IV but her main unit was two infanterie divisions and one underequipped panzer division who were equipped with horses for transport instead of motor vehicles. Another units were also purely infantry unit - XXIII armeekorps, with two StuG abteilung.ljadw wrote:To be a panzerlover is(IMHO) an incurable ilness,that's affecting your ability to make sound judgments
But,whatever,in Citadelle only the 10th Pzbrigade had Pantherlosses (some 42).
Hi, ljadw, however, the end of Kursk offensive was caused by German north offensive was stopped by Soviet while the southern offensive went well. Regarding northern panzer strength, it was really weaker than the southern panzer troop. Only LXVII panzerkorps was stronger. Other Panzerkorps like LXVI Panzerkorps only had four infanterie divisions and three StuG Abt and although LXI panzerkorps had Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer IV but her main unit was two infanterie divisions and one underequipped panzer division who were equipped with horses for transport instead of motor vehicles. Another units were also purely infantry unit - XXIII armeekorps, with two StuG abteilung.ljadw wrote:To be a panzerlover is(IMHO) an incurable ilness,that's affecting your ability to make sound judgments
But,whatever,in Citadelle only the 10th Pzbrigade had Pantherlosses (some 42).