"Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

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Panzeralex
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#46

Post by Panzeralex » 07 Aug 2011, 01:55

EugE wrote:Tim Ripley has mentioned about 71 PzKpfw V, it mean that all battalion 19.8 already participated in the battle.
Only began to be mentioned in battle orders and not use in combat.
First employment was only 22.8.43.

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#47

Post by Ponomarenko » 07 Aug 2011, 08:55

Thanks, Panzeralex!
Panzeralex wrote: Yes,only without one Kp were sent in Kharkov.
21.8.43 report from DR: I./SS Pz Rgt 2 (not with Division DR) with 71 Panther on march
I think it was repairing/maintance compay, it didn't send to front with battle companies.
Panzeralex wrote: About first battle action, yes, first battle action took place only 22.8.43.
On 02.00 a.m. 22.8.43 two Panther Kp-s were used for local offensive in common with Pz.Gren.Rgt. "Deutschland" in 3 Pz.Div. area.
According evening report (Ia Tagesmeldung) from DR Panther Abt (with out one Kp. in Kharkov) was in battle.
Yes, 04:15 - their first abschuss - 3 T-34.


Pena V
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#48

Post by Pena V » 08 Aug 2011, 20:29

Hello Ponomarenko,

Standartenführer (since 21 Jun 1943) Nikolaus Heilmann was assigned to SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Das Reich" for staff training from 22 Jun 1943 to 27 Jul 1943. When Georg Maier became ill in July 1943 Heilmann replaced him for a short period of time until Peter Sommer took over in July 1943 (27 Jul 1943?).

I am aware that my list might include mistakes but I can't correct them if you don't help me. So please give me more info.

About Otto Weidinger. He was WIA 08 Jul 1943 but - at least officially - lead I/"Deutschland" into Aug 1943. He was succeeded by Fritz Horn whose previous command was Feld-Ersatz-Bataillon of "Das Reich". Whether Horn took actually over 08 Jul 1943 or in Aug 1943 (05 Aug 1943?) I am not able to say.

Regards,

Pena V

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#49

Post by Ponomarenko » 08 Aug 2011, 22:35

Pena V wrote:Hello Ponomarenko,

Standartenführer (since 21 Jun 1943) Nikolaus Heilmann was assigned to SS-Panzergrenadier-Division "Das Reich" for staff training from 22 Jun 1943 to 27 Jul 1943. When Georg Maier became ill in July 1943 Heilmann replaced him for a short period of time until Peter Sommer took over in July 1943 (27 Jul 1943?).
There is no info about Heillman replacing Mair in my files. :( Maier was division Ia during operation "Citadelle". Accordingly M.C. Yerger research, Sommer was Maier sucessor, not Heillmann. I think it's little possible that Heilmann took this post. :)

Thanks for you replies.
Regards.

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#50

Post by Ponomarenko » 09 Aug 2011, 10:58

Hello Pena V
Pena V wrote: About Otto Weidinger. He was WIA 08 Jul 1943 but - at least officially - lead I/"Deutschland" into Aug 1943. He was succeeded by Fritz Horn whose previous command was Feld-Ersatz-Bataillon of "Das Reich". Whether Horn took actually over 08 Jul 1943 or in Aug 1943 (05 Aug 1943?) I am not able to say.
Erm..., in my sourses Horn listed as commander field replacment battailon "Das Reich" from the end of July to the start October 1943.

Regards.

EugE
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#51

Post by EugE » 09 Aug 2011, 20:17

Does somebody has any photos of 8 company during Kursk battle?
The membership of 3 company from I/SS-PzRgt 2 also interesting for me, when he had arrived to the Kharkov area (if it possible), also when was changed the company commander?

According to the post of Panzeralex the first combat for the newly arrived Panthers was on 22 August 1943, the Panthers of the 2. Company destroyed 23 Soviet Tanks[T-34s] out of eighty in the Russian attack. In total the Panthers destroyed 53 Soviet vehicles that day. Is it correct?
Look for it and you will find it...

Kelvin
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#52

Post by Kelvin » 09 Aug 2011, 20:25

Panzeralex wrote:
George M. Nipe wrote:Michael, I can't find a Panzer report for 30.7.43 for Das Reich in my files. I do have a 26.6.43 report from II.SS-Pz.-Kps to Heeresgruppe Süd which lists following for the division. Pz.III - 48, Pz. IV - 27, Tiger - 10, Befehl Wg. - 7 and T-34 - 15. On 4.7.43 the Tagesmeldung of II.SS-Panzer-Kps to 4.Pz. Armee show the following. Pz. III - 48, Pz. IV - 30, Tiger - 12, T-34 -18 and Bef.Pz - 8. These reports were generated by Generalkommando II. SS-Pz.-Korps 1a Tagebuch Nr. 1224/43 and were sent to both Pz.Armeeoberkommando 4 and VIII.Flieger-Korps. The 4.7.1943 information originated from was sent on 4.7.1943 @ 1945 Uhr.
I am very curious to know where the numbers from Nevenkin and D+W were said to have originated from. Do they give any source?
I can give you the exact source for mine. The 4.7. report can be found in National Archives microfilm record group T-354, roll 605, frame 000495.
I can't explain the discrepancies, however, I am looking at the copy of the 4.7 report in front of me right now. The corps didn't print up ten different tank number reports every day just for fun, so I will assume that this is the correct one and any other numbers are either mistaken or have been derived from secondary sources.
George Nipe
George M. Nipe,
Tagesmeldungen not the only sources about AFVs strength.
Most complete data about AFVs in DR in the begining of operation Citadel you can find and see in O.Qu.Pz.AOK 4 files in NARA or BA-MA (O.Qu. - Ober Quartiermeister),
for example report for 1/7/43 list in DR (also this report list changes in AFvs strength during the reriod 20-30.6.43) mentioned else panzers:
1 Pz II in long-term repair
62 Pz III lg (51 combat-ready and 11 in short-term repair)
9 Beob Pz III - combat-ready
33 Pz IV lg (31 combat-ready and 2 in short-term repair)
14 Pz VI (12 combat-ready, 1 in short-term rapeir and 1 in long term repair)
10 Bef Wg - combat-ready (including 1 Bef Pz I and 9 Bef Pz III)
26 T34 (15 combat-ready and 9 in short-term repair)
and etc
In this report listed all AFVs, including panzers, StuG, SP guns, SP AT guns, SPW and etc.
***
60+9 Pz III in Kamen's chart (and in Meldung DR 1/7/43) - this is the total number of Pz III including Bef.Pz III.
But Meldung not list all Pz III, as we see according O.Qu.Pz.AOK 4 files in DR were:
71 Pz III (51 Pz III combat-ready, 11 Pz III lg in short-term repair and 9 Bef Pz III combat-ready)
and 9 Beob.Pz. III.

Best regards,
Panzeralex
Hi, Alex, did Das Reich division also had 11 operational Marder and 33 operational StuG III on July 1 1943, is my figure correct ?

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#53

Post by Ponomarenko » 10 Aug 2011, 18:20

Kelvin wrote: Hi, Alex, did Das Reich division also had 11 operational Marder and 33 operational StuG III on July 1 1943, is my figure correct ?
Yes, your figures is correct.

Kelvin
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#54

Post by Kelvin » 10 Aug 2011, 20:25

Hi, Ponomarenko, thank for your reply.

BTW, did all Das Reich 31 operational Pz IV on June 30 1943 were L48 ? Do you know that ?

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#55

Post by Ponomarenko » 10 Aug 2011, 20:40

On 4.7.43 Das Reich had 15 Pz-IV L24 from 33 operational Pz-IV. Conseqently other 18 panzers were L48.

Kelvin
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#56

Post by Kelvin » 11 Aug 2011, 07:30

ljadw wrote:To be a panzerlover is(IMHO) an incurable ilness,that's affecting your ability to make sound judgments :P
But,whatever,in Citadelle only the 10th Pzbrigade had Pantherlosses (some 42).
Hi, ljadw, however, the end of Kursk offensive was caused by German north offensive was stopped by Soviet while the southern offensive went well. Regarding northern panzer strength, it was really weaker than the southern panzer troop. Only LXVII panzerkorps was stronger. Other Panzerkorps like LXVI Panzerkorps only had four infanterie divisions and three StuG Abt and although LXI panzerkorps had Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer IV but her main unit was two infanterie divisions and one underequipped panzer division who were equipped with horses for transport instead of motor vehicles. Another units were also purely infantry unit - XXIII armeekorps, with two StuG abteilung.

Kelvin
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#57

Post by Kelvin » 11 Aug 2011, 07:31

ljadw wrote:To be a panzerlover is(IMHO) an incurable ilness,that's affecting your ability to make sound judgments :P
But,whatever,in Citadelle only the 10th Pzbrigade had Pantherlosses (some 42).
Hi, ljadw, however, the end of Kursk offensive was caused by German north offensive was stopped by Soviet while the southern offensive went well. Regarding northern panzer strength, it was really weaker than the southern panzer troop. Only LXVII panzerkorps was stronger. Other Panzerkorps like LXVI Panzerkorps only had four infanterie divisions and three StuG Abt and although LXI panzerkorps had Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer IV but her main unit was two infanterie divisions and one underequipped panzer division who were equipped with horses for transport instead of motor vehicles. Another units were also purely infantry unit - XXIII armeekorps, with two StuG abteilung.

Ponomarenko
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#58

Post by Ponomarenko » 11 Aug 2011, 17:13

There is new book about Das Reich at Kursk:

http://www.rzm.com/books/cp/cp6627.cfm

Has anybody read it yet?

EugE
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#59

Post by EugE » 25 Mar 2012, 04:35

Has anybody info about the 8th tanks company? Does this company had arisen and armed before Kursk battle or not, may be she was incorporated into other three companies of II/SS-PzRgt 2 like LSSAH 8th tanks company?
Look for it and you will find it...

Pena V
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Re: "Das Reich"-organisation during Citadel?

#60

Post by Pena V » 20 May 2012, 21:12

Hello again Ponomarenko,

While searching for something else I found this in Mark Yerger's GCiG Volume 2 Addendum (Page 341): "Nikolaus Heilmann signed a report as 1. Gen. Stb. Offz. i.V. on July 9, 1943 so he assumed the post briefly between Maier and Sommer."

Regards,

Pena V

PS I am still curious about the other mistakes I might have. I am eager to correct my database if you just let me know what to correct.

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