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21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

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21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Kriegsberichter on 31 Dec 2011 15:22

Hi, I am looking for any information you might be able to give me on the following officers who were servin with the 10th SS-Pz.Div. in 1944.... with a special interest in the question added

Richter, Friedrich, SS-Stubaf. 9. 5.11 17 560

Lohr, Hans, SS-Stubaf. 5. 4.12 323 833

Bachmann, Rudolf, SS-Hstuf. 10. 8.01 50 556

Haucke, Ulrich, SS-Hstuf. 13.6.17 323 817

Siebert, Wolfgang, SS-Hstuf. 24. 6.11 126 303

Sattler, Karl, SS-Stubaf. 15. 1.13 46 237



I./SS Pz Gren Rgt. 21 was commanded at the beginning of September by
Hstuf Erich Reinprecht, who is/was missing in the Albert Canal area. So who took over from him at that time?

Its a possiblilty that this was temporarily Lohr, Hans Stubaf. 5. 4.12 323 833 before Bachmann, Rudolf Hstuf. 10. 8.01 50 556 arrived. Another possbility is that one of the Kompanie commanders temporarily took over till Bachmann arrived.
In 1944 Lohr replaced became (again?) the commander of I./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 when he replaced Bachmann.
Was Lohr in September given temporily command of I./SS-Pz.Gren-Rgt. 21 till Buchmann arrived, or who else commanded I./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 during the battle at Arnhem/NIjmegen
(or another possibility is that Laubscheer as Regt Commander with only one battalion under his command took direct command...)

Richter, Friedrich Stubaf. 9. 5.11 17 560 was with II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 as part of Kampfgruppe Heinke in September 1944, but what was his function when he arrived back under command 10. SS-Pz.Division by mid october 1944? Seems to me that Dr.Segler took command of II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21, so Richter was then no longer in Command of II/SS Pz.Gren. 21 and was given command of III./21 by februari 1945.
What was his task with 10 SS between mid-october 1944 and februari 1945???? Was he recovering from wounds?
It also seems that Dr.Segler was also shortly in command II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21, to be replaced by Hstuf Wolfgang Siebert. Why was this ? Was Dr. Segler wounded at that time?

Was Haucke still in command of II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 22 in late september 1944 (Arnhem) and who took command from him by early october 1944. Was this Gilhofer, Herbert Stubaf. or Walther Kurt, Stubaf.?
From what I can make out of it is that Haucke was still in command at Arnhem, but was replaced by Gilhofer by mid october 1944. Is this assumsion correct?
Then it seems that Walther turned up and was replacing Gilhofer who then took command of a newly formed III./SS-Pz. Gren.Rgt. 22.

Does someone know about what time Stubf Sattler took command of III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 22. Was this already in September 1944?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Pena V on 06 Jan 2012 22:12

Here is what I have. Some of it is quite vague.

SS-Sturmbannführer RICHTER Friedrich
Born: 09 May 1911
Died: 30 Aug 1989
SS-Nr.: 17 560

Promotions:
09 Nov 1939 SS-Hauptsturmführer
06 Nov 1944 SS-Sturmbannführer

Assignments:
- 1944.................I./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 22
17 Jul 1944 - 1944...SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 22
Aug 1944 -............II./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21
-09(!) May 1945......III./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21

Awards:
14 Nov 1944 DKiG
11 May 1945 RK (not official)

Obersturmbannführer SATTLER Karl
Born: 15 Jan 1913
Died: 30 Nov 1996
SS-Nr.: 46.237

Promotions:
02 Apr 1932 SS-Untersturmführer
30 Jan 1938 SS-Obersturmführer
20 Apr 1940 SS-Hauptsturmführer

Assignments:
01 Jun 1939 - 18 Dec 1940...K/Totenkopf-Infanterie-Ersatz-Bataillon II
08 Jul 1941 - 21 Oct 1941....SS-Infanterie-Regiment 10
- 29 Apr 1942..................Totenkopf-Infanterie-Ersatz-Bataillon III
- 1943..........................with 1. SS-Infanterie-Brigade
1943............................WIA
1944 - 1944....................with HSSPF Russland-Süd
20 Apr 1944 - 1944............SS-Unterführer-Schule "Radofzell"
(Oct 1944) - (Oct 1944)......III./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21
(16 Jan 1945)..................KG Sattler

Awards:
26 Oct 1941 EK II
14 Apr 1944 EK I
16 Jan 1945 RK

Commanders of I./SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiment 21
01 Feb 1943 - 12 Jul 1943....SS-Stubaf. Anhalt Günther
12 Jul 1943 - Jul 1943.........SS-Stubaf. Laubscheer Heinz
Jul 1943 - 1943................SS-Stubaf. Molt Carl
1943 - 14 Apr 1944............SS-Stubaf. Laubscheer Heinz -> WIA
1944 - Jul 1944................SS-Hstuf. Fromme Helmut
04 Aug 1944 - 24 Aug 1944...SS-Hstuf. Wolter Wilhelm -> KIA
Aug 1944 - 1945...............SS-Stubaf. Molt Carl
1945 - 1945....................SS-Hstuf. Bachmann Rudolf
First of all it seems that I'm missing SS-Hstuf. Erich Reinprecht, SS-Hstuf. Rudolf Bachmann and SS-Stubaf. Hans Lohr. I guess they all fit in between Wolter and Molt which in turn means that Molt's command period must have started later than in August 1944. I'm sorry that I cann't help you in this question. I'll be back later concerning the other questions.

Regards,

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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt- Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Kriegsberichter on 07 Jan 2012 00:03

Thanks,

can you tell me what your source is that Molt returned in August 1944 and remainded till 1945 ?
I have Molt in III/21 Molt, Carl-Günther Stubaf. 29. 4.14 42 026 Kdr.III./Pz.GR.21 4.44 Wounded in action 4.44. No information he ever returned.


Here is my list of I/21 from june 1944 till april 1945

I/21
Lohr, Hans Stubaf. 5. 4.12 323 833 Kdr.I./Pz.GR.21 4.45 †22. 4.45

Bachmann, Rudolf Hstuf. 10. 8.01 50 556 Kdr.I./Pz.GR.21 2.45

Hstuf. Lohr ((before that Lohr Hstuf. was O1,10.SS-Pz.Div. 6.44)) A lot of officers changed (temporarily) places in september as the Division was in shortice of officers. If Lohr was indead in command in September 1944 I do not know for sure.

Reinprecht, Erich Hstuf. 30.12.18 304 431 Kdr.I./Pz.GR.21 9.44 missing 9.44
Reinprecht is missing in the Albert Canal area (about 1 september)

Wolter, Wilhelm Stubaf. 15.10.15 110 460 Kdr.I./Pz.GR.21 7.44 †23. 8.44

Richter, Friedrich Hstuf. 9.5.11 17 560 Kdr.I./Pz.GR.21 7.44 why replaced by Wolter??)

Dietrich, Karl Hstuf 19. 9.13 110 177 Kdr.I./Pz.GR.21 6.44
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt- Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Pena V on 07 Jan 2012 17:00

My source about Molt can be found from SS & Polizei Forum in the thread about Stubaf. Molt and Hstuf Mauer. Mikedc writes 11 Sep 2009 about Molt's period of command being "7-44/beginning of 45".
The next step can be found in the thread about Stubaf. Walter where I adjust this period in 20 Sep 2009 to start later ie. in August 1944 because it was contradicting with Wolter's dates (04 Aug 1944 - 24 Aug 1944). At that time there were no other contradictions.
I don't know where Mikedc has got his information and I have adjusted it already once so if you know that Molt didn't come back at all after April 1944 we have to adjust the info again. In that case the commanders of I/21 after Wolter would be as you present them above - unless someone (Mark Yerger?) can give more information later on :)

Wolter and before him:
1. We have slightly different dates concerning Wolter (Jul 1944 - 23 Aug 1944 vs 04 Aug 1944 - 24 Aug 1944). One possible explenation for DoD could be that he was WIA 23 Aug 1944 and died the next day?
2. Richter. My sources say Richter was the CO of I/22 in 1944. This of course doesn't mean that he could not have been the CO of I/21 in July 1944 also.
3. How about Hsf Helmut Fromme until July 1944? No contradictions between Richter or Dietrich.
4. Dietrich 21 June 1944 - OK.
All in all a lot of commanders for one Bataillon!
Take a look at the threads in SS & Polizei Forum which I mentioned above if you haven't done it already.

Regards,

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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt- Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Mikedc on 08 Jan 2012 00:12

Hey guys,
Just read this thread, viewtopic.php?f=38&t=157841 , and you'll understand why I went on the wrong track after reading the post from Freddie. In his info about Molt he gives him as CO from III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21 and then as CO from I./1. Rgt./10. SS-Pz.Div. but apparently this has to be the way around. He first commanded the
I. Btl. and later the III. Btl., at least that's how I know read it......

Greetings, Mike
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Kriegsberichter on 08 Jan 2012 11:15

Tieke (page 54) wrote that Molt was as Kommandeur III./21 on 6 april 1944 'verwundet' (source Führerverluste der 10. SS-Pz.division von 5 -18.4.1944 ) At that time Laubscheer was in command of I./21 as he is on that same list as been mentioned:-
SS-Sturmbannfuhrer Laubscheer I./21 verwundet.

Molt is not mentioned again after he got wounded...

Kdr.I./1. Rgt./10. SS-Pz.Div.: [01.07.1944 W-SS DAL]
The date is incorrect, have a look on the other topic (see link above) . It had to be

Kdr.I./1 Rgt./10. SS-Pz.Div 21.6.43 !

I./1 Regt 10 :- look to me that they mean The SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 10 in 'Aufstellung' as at that time, april 1943 the first Regiment was namend 'I' instead of '21'
So Molt was firstly in command the first battalion and later took command of III./21 and was wounded in action on the 6th of april and never returned...
Last edited by Kriegsberichter on 08 Jan 2012 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt- Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Kriegsberichter on 08 Jan 2012 13:07

3. How about Hsf Helmut Fromme until July 1944? No contradictions between Richter or Dietrich.


Fromme, Helmut born at Westhofen 20. 5.16 201 983
Hstuf. Chef,3./Pz.GR.21 7.44 † 4. 8.44
Hstuf. Chef,15./Pz.GR.22 9.43 Acqueville
Ostuf. 2./LSSAH 6.40

So it seems Fromme never was command of Pz Gren Regt 21. If he was then temporarily between Richter and Wolf but only for days.

2. Richter. My sources say Richter was the CO of I/22 in 1944. This of course doesn't mean that he could not have been the CO of I/21 in July 1944 also.


To understand how Richter became commander II./21 we must go back to september 1944.
In the first days of september the 10th SS arrived in the Arnhem area. The larger part of Regt Stab of PGR 22 was lost. PGR had only one Regt Stab left - 21 - and two weak battaliongroups, each about 250 strong. The remnants of PGR 22 was even less strong.

It was orderd that the 10th SS Pz. Div must be ready for battle and started to reoganise inmidiatly. On 8 september it was ordered to reorganise the troops in what was called 'SS Pz.Grenadier Regiment Frundsberg.
Its consisted of the Regimental Stab 21 (Laubscheer)
one panzerjager Komp
one I.G. Komp
Most of the remnants of PGR 21 were making a battlion group and became I./21 (Hst Lohr?)
MOst of the remnants of PGR 22 were making a battalion group and became II./21 (Richter)
What remained (I believe) became III./21 (Hstuf Haucke??))
II/PGR 19 given by 9th SS became IV/21 (Euling)

Each Battalion was about 250 strong, containing 3 KP's (of which 1 Schwere).

So realize that at that time we can forget all what is written in the existing Fuhrerliste/DAL...
It seems to me that not all men knew that their 'original' battalion number had been changed and in story's published they still keep mention there old battalion nummers... Its possible that the battalions were named after their commander for the troops, while the numbering was used between the battalion, regimental and Division staffs. That is also why this period so complex.

We know that II./21 under command of Richter was send to the south with Kampfgruppe Heinke on the 10th of September where it joined up with a battalion of the 9th SS Pz.Div under command of Dr Segler... We will see them back in mid-october...

When the Alied airborne landings started on the 17th of September 1944 there was only one regimental Stab.
with 3 weak battalions (I./21, III./21 and IV./21)
In the storys about Arnhem and Nijmegen we know that I./21 was fighting around the bridge at Arnhem as part of Kampfgruppe Brinkmann. Its possibly that it was commanded by Hauptsturmfuhrer Lohr (temporarly)

Wearabouts about III./21 for that period are difficult to trace, it looks to me that they were also called II./22 (forinstance by Harmel)...and aslo figting at the bridge. I think (assumption) that Hauptsturmfuhrer Haucke was in temporary command.

IV/21 (Euling) was send to Nymegen, arriving at the bridge they fought one night under Kampfgruppe Brinkmann but were ordered move to Nijmegen. We know that at that time Euling was still named IV/21 as this is also mentioned on his RK citation.

During the Arnhem/Nijmegen battle the 10th received already reenforments. Heinke as Commander of the Ersatz battalion was send south with some throops (with Segler and Richter and others under command) but there is no mention that the Ersatz battalion itself was also send south...

By late September and the first days of October 1944 we see that Traupe was appointed commander of PZ Gren Regt 22. So at that time again two Regiments were organized each with (still) two weak battalions each. That each regiments had only two battalions is also mentioned by Harmel.

From the info I have I can make out that:-

-21 PGR (Laubscheer), with II./21 (Richter) and III./21 (Sattler)
I./21 seems no longer to exist. Richter was still with Heinke. In the Fuhrungsliste we Sattler is named as III./21..

22 PGR (Traupe) with now IV/21 becomming I./22 (Euling) and II./22 Gilhofer

By mid October Kampfgruppe Heinke returned with the remnants of Dr.Segler's battalion of 9th SS and Richter's II./21.
It was then that not Richter but Dr Segler took command of II./21. Richter was at that moment Haupsturmfuhrer and disapeared from view and returned in 1945 as Sturmbahnfuhrer and C.O. III./21... I wonder where we stayed in the time between october and februari 1945. Did he had to do some sorth of training or so?? This would explane it or had he become wouned while with Kampfgruppe Heinke???
Nevertheless Dr. Segler took command of II./21 (but was soon after Hstuf Siebert took command of II./21)

So about that time we have:-
PGR 21 (Laubscheer) with II/21 (Siebert) and III/21Stubf Sattler
PGR 21 (Traupe) still with I./22 (Euling) and II./22 Gilhofer

About that time Stubf Walter arrived. About that same time again the 10th SS Pz.Div had to send a battle group to 88 Armee Korps in the 's Hertogenbosch area.
A battle group was formed under command of Walter (not Traupe as in somany books is written) with two battalions. II./22 under command of Gilhofer and a second was the Heeres Battalion under command of Hauptmann Bruhn.
The name kampfgruppe Walther is several times mentioned in the KTB and Anlage of 88 AK (also Gilhofer is mentioned)
(and this is not the Kampfgruppe Walther who fought near Valkenswaard or near Veghel and Overloon!)

From all what I have read both Pz.Gren regiments had no third battalion before end November 1944.
So there seems to me I./21 did not exist from end september till late november when Bachmann took command of a new formed I./21.

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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Pena V on 08 Jan 2012 21:07

WOW! - That's all I can say and thanks for sharing Peter.

Regards,

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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby radevich on 09 Jan 2012 16:31

Richter, Friedrich SS-Nr. 17.560 * 09.05.1911, Boizenhaben b. Hannover
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Jampe on 09 Jan 2012 21:09

Hello!

I have for a long time tried to figure out how the "Frundsberg" and "Hohenstaufen" were organised during this period, and now all the pieces falls in place! Very impressive work Kriegsberichter! You don´t happens to know what happened to the remaining SPW:s of the original I./21? Was one of the "new" battalions reorganised as a SPW battalion or were they all transferred to SS-Pz.A.A.10? Or were Hohenstaufens remaining SPW:s transferred to SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.21 as a substitute?

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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Kriegsberichter on 09 Jan 2012 21:23

In the model 1944 SS -Pz Division lay out the SPW's were not in the first battalion of the first regiment but in the third battalion of the second Regiment. So I./21 did not have any SPW's.

Nevertheless, I understand your question an in the orders mentioned about the formation of Pz. Gren Regt Frundsberg it is mentioned :-

"....SS Pz. Gren Regt Frundsberg und Pi-Btl.10 geben an SS-Pz.A.A. 10 alle noch vorhandenen SPW (einsatzbereite und nicht einsatzbereite) am 9.9.44 ab....."
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Revellations on 09 Jan 2012 22:30

Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to put this information on the forum. You have obviously spent a lot of time researching this and what wonderful information for all researchers.

Cheers

Scott
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Kriegsberichter on 10 Jan 2012 14:12

Thanks!

This is only about the Pz.Gren Regiments , I do hope to reconstruct the whole 10th SS for the Sept-Oct 44 time for the Nijmegen webpage I am working... Do hope we can help each other,

Peter
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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Revellations on 10 Jan 2012 14:32

Kriegsberichter wrote:Thanks!

This is only about the Pz.Gren Regiments , I do hope to reconstruct the whole 10th SS for the Sept-Oct 44 time for the Nijmegen webpage I am working... Do hope we can help each other,

Peter


...I am only just an email away Peter!!!

Cheers

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Re: 21. and 22. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. - Sept/Oct 1944

Postby Jampe on 10 Jan 2012 15:35

Kriegsberichter wrote:In the model 1944 SS -Pz Division lay out the SPW's were not in the first battalion of the first regiment but in the third battalion of the second Regiment. So I./21 did not have any SPW's.

Nevertheless, I understand your question an in the orders mentioned about the formation of Pz. Gren Regt Frundsberg it is mentioned :-

"....SS Pz. Gren Regt Frundsberg und Pi-Btl.10 geben an SS-Pz.A.A. 10 alle noch vorhandenen SPW (einsatzbereite und nicht einsatzbereite) am 9.9.44 ab....."

Thanks for the reply Peter! I am really looking forward to your website :D 8-)

/Jampe
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