Pionier KStN

[Ernst112]

Hello Everyone,

I am in need of some help, I am looking for pionier kompanie KStN 723 n 1.4.1944 (auf Fahrrad). If anyone can help me locate this or has a copy I would greatly appreciate it. Also what was the pionier KStN for the Infanterie division neuer Art 44? Was it the 711 series or 714? I would also welcome any info on those KStN's as well.

Looking forward to your Replys
Ernst

[Christoph Awender]

Hello Ernst,

I must have a look into my files if the KStN 723n 1.4.44 (auf Fahrrad) is still existing in the KStN folders because many Pionier KstN are lost.
The Inf.Div.44 had one company KStN 711n (1.4.44) and one KStN 723n 1.4.44 (auf Fahrrad). Or do you mean the Inf.Div. (n.A) neuer Art?

/Christoph

[Piet Duits]

The differences are very small. The totals for the Stab, Pionier-Kompanie and Pionier-Kompanie (Fahrradbew.) are:

702n v. 1.10.1943: 6/3/14/68 (thereof 13 Hw)
702n v. 1.4.1944: 6/3/14/60 (thereof 13 Hw)

711n v. 1.10.1943: 3/-/26/156 (thereof 23 Hw)
711n v. 1.4.1944: 3/-/26/150 (thereof 15 Hw)

723n v. 1.10.1943: 3/-/26/155 (thereof 18 Hw)
723n v. 1.4.1944: 3/-/26/150 (thereof 18 Hw)

As I already wrote, very small differences.

[Ernst112]

Christoph & Piet,

First off thanks for taking the time to reply!

In regards to your question Christoph I believe it's the Infanterie Division n.A, that is if the 22. welle division's were built to this model. Which as I understand it they were. So whatever KStN's pertain to a Pio.Btl. of one of these division are the ones I am interested in.

Piet I take it that its officers/officials/NCO's/men and the hiwis you have not included in the total. So yes as you say there is little difference in personnel strength. So what I really want to know is would these Pionier Kompanien have 3 Züge each of 3 Gruppen? Also would the Gruppen be 9 men or 10 like in an Infanterie Pionier Zug?

I am also very interested in the weaponry available to them. How many l.MG, pistol, machine-pist., Karabiner ect. per Kompanie or Zug. That’s why I was hoping to find a full KStN and KAN if they are in existence.

Thanks
Ernst

Edit:

Piet,

I take it the full bataillon would be

Bataillonstab (702n)
1. Kompanie (711n)
2. Kompanie (711n)
3. Kompanie (723n)

Then the Brückenkolonne & leichte Pionierkolonne?

[Piet Duits]

Ernst,

The Brücken-Kolonnen were taken out of the regular Pionier-Batallione since I don't know when (1940, 1941?).
I know that some units on the eastern front still had their leichte Pionier-Kolonnen, but usually those were integrated into the Stab and Pionier-Kompanien by 1943-1944.

Yes, I have added the Hiwi's to my totals. Hiwi = Hw.
So, a batallion build according to the original set from 1.10.1943 would have had 13+23+23+18 = 77 Hw, or the changed set from 1.4.1944 *) which had 13+15+15+18 = 61 Hw.
*) Many KStN from the Infanterie-Division n.A. had changes made to them in March 1944. Including the Pionier-Batallion n.A., which resulted in the reduction of 77 to 61 Hw too. The 1.4.1944 set of KStN was the final result of the changes to the 1.10.1943 set.
I hope this makes sence.

The Pionier-Kompanie had 3 Züge with 3 Gruppen each. Each Gruppe had 1 Gruppenführer and 9 Pioniere.
As to weapons etc.: nothing spectacular there. The KStN 711n as of 1.4.1944 for example has a total of:
"121 Gew. (thereof 9 Zielfernrohrgewehre and 9 Selbstladegewehre), 40 Pistole, 21 Maschinenpistole, 9 le. MG, 2 s. MG, 2 8cm Gr. and 3 Panz.Büchs.
The 3 platoons each had 27 Gewehre (most likely each platoon had 3 Zf. and 3 Selbstl.Gew.), 8 Pist., 5 Masch.Pist., 3 le. MG.
The KStN 723n had the same organisation.
The KStN 702n as of 1.4.1944 had 65 Gew. (thereof 2 Zf.Gew.), 18 Pist., 7 Masch.Pist. and 4 le. MG.

[Ernst112]

Thanks for the info Piet,

So 2 s.MG and 2 Gr.Werfer per Kompanie, that a lot more than I expected! So effectivley each Kompanie had it's own heavy weapons zug.

Ernst

[CNE503]

Hello,

Could someone confirm me that in 1939-1943, the standard KStN for an engineers company was the KStN 711 released on October 1st, 1934? No other KStN took its place until late 1943?

Thanks!
Cheers,

CNE503

[Leo Niehorster]

Nope.
And not that simple. (Isn't it always... ?)

The normal "foot" came in two versions, namely KStN 711 (R) and KStN 711 (O), dated 01.09.34, and only existed until 31.01.41.
They were was then replaced by KStN 711, which was in effect until 31.10.41.
KStN 711 was replaced by KStN 711b dated 01.11.41. (Published at the same time was KStN 711a, which for the light divisions.) Both continuing into 1944.
The motorized KStN 712 existed from 01.10.37 until 1945.
The bicycle equipped version was KStN 723, starting sometime in 1940, (if not earlier), and continuing into 1944.

[CNE503]

Leo, it's crystal clear, as usual.
Thank you!

Cheers,

CNE503

[akdavis]

Bumping this with a question for Leo Niehorster on the Pioneer KStN posted to his website:

As Piet notes above, KStN 711n 1.4.44 includes a note indicating that of the total rifles, 9 would be Zielfernrohrgewehre and 9 Selbstladegewehre. KStNs 712 (fG) and 714 (fG) dated 1.6.44 for the motorized and armored companies in the Panzer Pioneer Battalion include the same note. Did the earlier KStNs 711n, 712 and 714 from 1.11.43 or KStN 714 from 1.4.43 say anything about scoped or self-loading rifles? I notice that some of the rifle totals in your tables are in the format "X + Y" but not sure what this indicates.

Regards,
AKD

[Gary Kennedy]

714 of Apr43 doesn't include a note or ref to self-loading or scoped rifles, doesn't mean they weren't there, but no mention.

712 and 714 of Nov43 both note that their total rifles include 9 scoped and 9 self-loading.

The full KStN for both 711n and 723n of Oct43 are (as far as I'm aware) not available. There is a summary table showing 9 self-loading and 9 sniper rifles in each type of Coy for that KStN issue date.

Gary

[akdavis]

Thank you very much Gary. That perfectly addresses the question. Can these tables and summary tables be found in NARA?

[Gary Kennedy]

Well the summary table is easy to get at;

T78R399_H1_048 over on www.Sturmpanzer.com

A very large document full of various bits and bobs, if you check page 96 of 260 you'll see the summary info for a Pi.Btl.Inf.Div.44 under the 01.10.43 KStNs. I think this is after the reductions of Mar44 that resulted in the Apr44 reissue.

NARA isn't an organisation I'm familiar with as I'm in the UK. I tried to prise some US T/Os out of them a little while ago but didn't get anywhere. My copies of those KStNs come from either BA-MA (another fun archive to deal with) and the goodwill of others with better collecting skills. I think NARA has some Pioneer info but someone told me a while back it isn't where it's supposed to be in their files?

Gary