Why the Waffen-SS

[Dwight Pruitt]

, I do find it curious that the modern US Army helmets resemble WWII German helmets more than American helmets of the same time period. Coincidence?

Only with those who want to see the resemblance. Without the camouflage cover, the old PAGST helmet bears little resemblance to the Stahlhelm. The new ACH has none. The Bundeswehr, which adopted a copy of the US M1 helmet until 2000, uses a one that bears more of a resemblance to the Stahlhelm than the PAGST ever did.

[Rob - wssob2]

I think that Pintere is correctly pointing out that there are certain elements - camoflauge, helmet style, reputation of "eliteness", muzzle brakes, etc. -identified as belonging to the Waffen-SS (rightly or wrongly) that have over time gained (again rightly or wrongly) an iconographic significance.

(Pintere, FYI check out the "Dithering on the Blurred Origins of SS Cammo" thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1890929)

We can (and have) argue whether this significance is deserved or matches the historical reality but as one poster accurately and rather humorously pointed out, such arguments get increasingly pedantic and resemble watching motorcycle riders going round and round in a barrel. I know I'm guilty of joining this barrel-riding exercise!

The fact remains that the attraction to the iconography - however misguided or superficial - still resonates in our present day. Seabird posted the USMC Scout Sniper unit in Afghanistan that posed with an SS flag - they got into a bit of trouble over that! The Ukrainian Azov Battalion that is currently stationed in eastern Ukraine fighting DNR separatists incorporate the 2nd SS "Das Reich" symbol on their unit patches - which of course leads the separatist movement to define them as "Nazis" in their propaganda.

The admiration for this iconography probably has to do with the amoral, "sinister glamour" ascribed to the "army of outlaws." If you want to be a bada** soldier, incorporate some symbolism from perhaps the most (in)famous WWII organization of "political soldiers."

[pintere]

Hey Rob. I've checked out the thread, definitely some good bits of info in there. I'm still a bit new to the subject, so the information is appreciated.

Overall though, I think arguing about it is a bit unnecessary. In any discussions about favourites and personal opinions, there is going to be a lot of difficulty trying to make another person convert to your point of view. I still think there is no problem in sharing such opinions though. As for actual objective arguments over combat effectiveness.... yeah I can see what you mean. Especially if it is a 101st vs 1st SS argument.

For the record about the helmets though, this is where I do think a case can be made about similarity and difference.

Here are pictures of the ACH and PAGST.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6154/6207 ... 3197_z.jpg
http://www.dropforyou.com/images/D/5925.JPG

Here are pictures of the M1 helmet and the Stahlhelm

http://www.sgairsoft.biz/dublin/images/ ... ca.net.jpg
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/tur ... 0224023449

Admittedly the similarity with the German helmet is more apparent with the older PAGST, but even the newer one looks more similar to the German than the M1. I'll let the readers decide whether US helmets look more like the M1 or the Stahlhelm.

[Dwight Pruitt]

I'm sorry, but who compared the PAGST to the M1?

[pintere]

I'm sorry, but who compared the PAGST to the M1?

I believe I wrote

I do find it curious that the modern US Army helmets resemble WWII German helmets more than American helmets of the same time period.

That is, they resemble the Stahlhelm more than the M1. Apologies for any misunderstanding, maybe I should have been more precise.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Unavoidable real-world obligations. They may impinge again.

I have already suggested to you why the police in Nazi Germany cannot be considered part of the general civil population. They were an integral, armed, uniformed part of the state security apparatus, not of the general civilian population.

You ask, “Please show/quote me where I have said the conscription did not occur after July 1944?“ Why? I have suggested no such thing. As I understand it, we agree that (1) conscription directly to the Waffen-SS occurred after that date and (2) you are not suggesting otherwise. I thought our disagreement was over whether conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began earlier than July 1944.

As you have seen, from my previous post, earlier in the war the Waffen-SS’s access to German conscript manpower was restricted by an official quota to a very low level – a level so low that it could apparently be fulfilled from genuine volunteers. Other W-SS recruiting techniques – drafting police, accepting foreigners, enlisting volunteers below Army conscription age, etc., were devices for getting round these restrictions on their access to Reich German conscripts. Have you an alternative, earlier date to late July 1944 when the Waffen-SS got unfettered access to Reich German conscripts?

The discussion so far seems to point to an alternative date of January 1943, when 9th and 10th W-SS Panzer Divisions began recruitment.

The first thing, of which I presume you are already aware, is that some 30% of their manpower consisted of experienced men transferred in from more senior divisions.

Secondly, 10,000 men were to be raised from other services (such as the border police) and a significant proportion, some 5,000, were to be raised from Volksdeutsche.

Thus only around 50% of these formations should have been from the group we are talking about – Reichsdeutsche conscripts.

So let’s look at the actual history of the recruitment of these two divisions.

Hitler apparently ordered their raising on 19th December 19th 1942. OKW was tasked with allocating 27,000 men from the conscription class of 1925 who were then undergoing RAD service. Furthermore, if the transfers from other services could not be achieved, more RAD youths would have to be recruited.

RAD men were under the age of military conscription. They therefore could not legally be forced to serve in the Army, the Waffen-SS, or any other service. However, they could volunteer prematurely and many did.

In the event, the 15,000 transfers and Volksdeutsche could not be raised. (A few months later, perhaps as a result of this recruitment failure, conscription of Volksdeutsche from allied countries such as Hungary, Romania and Slovakia was agreed, and these men helped form much of the 16th and 17th W-SS Divisions.)

Almost the whole weight of new recruitment for 9th and 10th SS Divisions therefore fell on the RAD. How was this done?

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1) There is no argument that most of the raw men taken into the two divisions came from the 1925 Class of conscripts. (Indeed, every German male belonged to one conscript class or another). However, the Waffen-SS was not given freedom to conscript them. It was given leave to recruit up to 60,000 volunteers to form new W-SS divisions (primarily the 9th and 10th) and to replace losses in more senior divisions.

2) OKW was opposed to this, as it would eat into the next phalanx of future junior leaders.

3) When the 1925 Class proved insufficiently responsive, General Fromm, head of the Ersatzheer, allowed for volunteers be asked for from the years 1923 and 1924.

4) However, even though Gottlob Berger, head of Waffen-SS recruitment, toured the RAD camps, nowhere near sufficient recruits could be raised through volunteerism.

5) At this point it appears the Waffen-SS began to selectively impress conscripts into its ranks. Berger says that involuntary methods of recruitment were employed in Hesse, at least. Another source reports that 70%-80% of the youths impressed at this time were not volunteers.

6) The army, families and clerics objected to the illegal impressments of these youths. As a result, according to SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Juttner, the Waffen-SS kept them in training for a month or so and then offered the choice of volunteering or being released from SS service. Reportedly only three men from the two divisions resigned.

It therefore seems that for 1943 (1) the Waffen-SS was allowed to recruit 60,000 Reichsdeutsche volunteers from three conscript classes, (2) that far too few volunteers came forward, (3) that it therefore resorted to illegal impressments (not conscription, which was a legal process), and (4) when challenged on this it stalled for a month until the weight of military discipline, indoctrination and peer group pressure made it very difficult not to “volunteer”, thereby retrospectively legitimising the process.

I therefore repeat: "As I understand it, conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head of the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" came from."

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It is also worthy of note that these two divisions took 15 months to field. By contrast, the three Army panzer divisions annihilated at Stalingrad (14th, 16th, 24th), later in the same month as 9th and 10th W-SS Panzer Divisions began to be raised, returned to action over September-October 1943, or over 8-9 months.

This reflects another problem with Waffen-SS expansion. It not only had to build the new divisions, but it had to build up their depot, training and replacement infrastructure as well. By contrast, the Army already had this infrastructure in place. Thus, not only did W-SS expansion, such as that of the 9th and 10th W-SS Divisions, divert good quality manpower from the Army, but it may also have delayed its arrival at the front. 12th W-SS Division was similarly slow to field. There appears to have been a time penalty in creating new Waffen-SS divisions, as opposed to sending the manpower to the Army.

Cheers,

Sid.

[ChristopherPerrien]

This helmet talk is of total nonsense , only people who have never worn or used either, would claim some superiority for the German Army or the SS because of it.

The M1 helmet was not only a piece of armor that worked as well as any other at the time, It had a separate liner in its construction, which made it a useful bowl and at times an entrenching tool too. Even the greatest of armies, of the world in history did not have a helm that worked, as a bowl, as a shovel, and as a piece of armor. The Roman Armies of Marius and Caesar would have been impressed with the M1 Helmut .

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The US ARMY changed from the old M1 Helm to the PSAGT in 1986. Gods know, it was not a more effective change, and I saw what happened since then.

On a similar note, Hugo Boss tailored SS uniforms has already been discussed in this topic long ago, and it is reasonable to account for some of their "eliteness" because of their uniforms, as a matter of style not their functionality.

[dshaday]

Hi Sid

I suspect that you are not understanding what I have written, and asked you to source.

I have already suggested to you why the police in Nazi Germany cannot be considered part of the general civil population. They were an integral, armed, uniformed part of the state security apparatus, not of the general civilian population.

You are again forgetting that I had mentioned draftees from the government services (postal service, police service), civilian employees of the SS, and technical/medical specialists. These are all members of the general civil population.

As I understand it, we agree that (1) conscription directly to the Waffen-SS occurred after that date and (2) you are not suggesting otherwise. I thought our disagreement was over whether conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began earlier than July 1944.

I am saying that conscription of Reich Germans from the civil population began before July 1944.

I am also saying that your conclusion that "I can understand the resentment of those Germans conscripted into the Waffen-SS late in the war, if they did not get the same benefits as other conscripts, but they can only have had 9 months service, at most. " is definitely wrong.

As you have seen, from my previous post, earlier in the war the Waffen-SS’s access to German conscript manpower was restricted by an official quota to a very low level – a level so low that it could apparently be fulfilled from genuine volunteers. Other W-SS recruiting techniques – drafting police, accepting foreigners, enlisting volunteers below Army conscription age, etc., were devices for getting round these restrictions on their access to Reich German conscripts. Have you an alternative, earlier date to late July 1944 when the Waffen-SS got unfettered access to Reich German conscripts?

The Waffen SS never had unfettered access to Reich German conscripts. There were always limitations as demonstrated by a maximum quota.
Personally, I am not sure that in 1943 the Waffen SS could fill its "low" quota with genuine volunteers.

I have already given you a personal case of a soldier called up by the Waffen SS even though he had nominated the Kriegsmarine at the recruiting station and did not volunteer for them. This occurred in June 1944.

I have already give you references from two authors that give dates prior to July 1944 for conscription into the Waffen SS.

The discussion so far seems to point to an alternative date of January 1943, when 9th and 10th W-SS Panzer Divisions began recruitment.

Not really, this was just one example that I gave.

I have also read the on-line history for the 10th SS Division that your initial statements seem to come from. That article also states on page 1 that:

1/ "The Oberkommando the Wehrmacht or OKW (Chief of the Armed Forces) ordered the expansion of the Waffen SS that brought an end to volunteer recruitment in the Waffen SS"

2/ "The majority of the enlisted personnel were either conscripted or volunteered for the division. The remainder of its strength consisted of men transferred from other units. The men were both Reichs and Volksdeutsche ...."

3/ OKW proposal to use 10,000 men from the Operation Armament Exchange 43 program to fill out the division.

4/On 24 February 1943 "Objections raised by the Chief of the RAD to further recruit from the RAD uncovered the stark reality that volunteer replacements could no longer be mustered for the Waffen SS."

http://www.stengerhistorica.com/History ... Page_1.htm

I therefore repeat: "As I understand it, conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head of the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" came from."

Well, I ask again, show me the proof that conscription of the general civil population only happened after July 1944, and not before. That would surely settle things. So far, you are making assumptions from two known facts and not providing any proof.

Regards

Dennis

[dshaday]

Hi Christopher

This helmet talk is of total nonsense , only people who have never worn or used either, would claim some superiority for the German Army or the SS because of it.

I do not recall anybody saying that the Wehrmacht or SS were superior in battle because of their helmets. This would be silly.

The M1 helmet was not only a piece of armor that worked as well as any other at the time, It had a separate liner in its construction, which made it a useful bowl and at times an entrenching tool too. Even the greatest of armies, of the world in history did not have a helm that worked, as a bowl, as a shovel, and as a piece of armor.

I am not familiar with the comparative effectiveness of the M1. But I would not put any special value in its liner's use as a bowl or the helmet as a digging tool - this is neither here nor there.

On a similar note, Hugo Boss tailored SS uniforms has already been discussed in this topic long ago, and it is reasonable to account for some of their "eliteness" because of their uniforms, as a matter of style not their functionality.

This was a parade uniform if I remember correctly. So style, was the whole point.

Regards

Dennis

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

You may have mentioned draftees, but I didn't.

It is well known that there were such administrative drafts from other uniformed government services, especially the police. Furthermore, unless you are suggesting that the general population of Germany consisted only of such people, you are not addressing my wider point at all. Even if we accept your proposition that armed police were members of the general civil population, they still consist of only a very small part of it. Your argument, apart from not addressing my point, is flawed on several levels.

Absolutely, "The Waffen SS never had unfettered access to Reich German conscripts. There were always limitations as demonstrated by a maximum quota." One of these limitations was that they had to be volunteers, at least until January 1943.

You write, "Personally, I am not sure that in 1943 the Waffen SS could fill its "low" quota with genuine volunteers." I would go further. The Waffen-SS certainly couldn't fulfill its quota for 1943 with genuine volunteers. Even Berger and Juttner admitted that. However, in earlier years, when the quota from the conscript classes was much lower, it appears that it could. It seems to have over reached itself at the turn of 1942/43 with the creation of 9th and 10th W-SS Divisions. It therefore had to resort to the retrospective device I mentioned in my last post to secure "volunteers".

It seems that when the 9th and 10th W-SS Divisions were raised in January 1943, the W-SS was still not allowed to conscript directly from the general civil population because it had to go through the charade of procuring retrospective volunteers. Furthermore, it was still at that stage possible to get out of W-SS service, so the "volunteers" for 9th and 10th W-SS Divisions still had some control over their own fate.

If the W-SS was allowed to take conscripts from the general civil population before July 1944, it would therefore presumably have to be after January 1943. As 12th W-SS Division was largely raised from pre-conscription Hitler Youth volunteers, and 16th and 17th W-SS Divisions appear to have had a high proportion of Volksdeutsche conscripts in their ranks, it seems no new divisions were largely raised of from Reichsdeutsche conscript classes, be they volunteers or conscripts,over January 1943-July 1944.

This still leaves space for replacements to have been raised by direct conscription from the general civil population in 1943-44.

I don't mind whether direct conscription from the general civil population began before or after July 1944. As we are apparently agreed that it occurred after that, it is up to the person contending that it began earlier to provide a date. That person is you.

So, if "conscription of Reich Germans from the civil population began before July 1944", when was this?

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Thanks for the link.

[dshaday]

Hi Sid

You may have mentioned draftees, but I didn't.

I see no difference between draftees of the public and conscripts from the public.

It is well known that there were such administrative drafts from other uniformed government services, especially the police. Furthermore, unless you are suggesting that the general population of Germany consisted only of such people, you are not addressing my wider point at all. Even if we accept your proposition that armed police were members of the general civil population, they still consist of only a very small part of it. Your argument, apart from not addressing my point, is flawed on several levels.

This example of draftees clearly contradicts your comment that ""I can understand the resentment of those Germans conscripted into the Waffen-SS late in the war, if they did not get the same benefits as other conscripts, but they can only have had 9 months service, at most. "

You keep missing the point. These were Germans conscripted into the Waffen SS before July 1944. They did not volunteer. They could have served for way more than 9 months during the war.

I don't mind whether direct conscription from the general civil population began before or after July 1944.

So, do you now accept that conscription of Reichdeutsch from the general civil population occurred before July 1944?
Or is it that you are unsure when conscription actually first began ?

As we are apparently agreed that it occurred after that, it is up to the person contending that it began earlier to provide a date. That person is you.

Not so fast ! Forum rules place the onus of proof on you.

Since it was you that claimed [/u]late war conscripts into the Waffen SS had a maximum of 9 months service it is up to you to prove that. Which means that you have to show that conscription of the general civil population did not occur before July 1944 (your 9 month start date for conscription). I have asked you for this proof multiple times, and you have avoided it.

So do you have the sources/proof to back your claims and assumptions, or not?

So, if "conscription of Reich Germans from the civil population began before July 1944", when was this?

Exactly when conscription began is not up to me to determine or prove. Although I have given two sources for a date, one of which is a well known Waffen SS historian. As well as personal biographical example for a soldier on June 1944 that disproves your theory of July 1944.

That and the IMT transcript are enough to show that your claims are suspect. This is all I have to really show. It is, however, up to you to provide proof for your specific claims. Which has not yet happened.

Regards

Dennis

[Michael Kenny]

One of those is the Stahlhelm. It's shape was unique, and no less effective than allied helmets. I'd say it's the iconic symbol of the German soldier (this would be comparison with Allied soldiers as opposed to other German units), and definitely has it's own legendary significance. As an aside, I do find it curious that the modern US Army helmets resemble WWII German helmets more than American helmets of the same time period. Coincidence?

Probably the same coincidence that changed a centuries old design into a 20th century German 'invention'. Google 'Open face Sallet'.

It is also a fact that the Germans developed a new style of helmet in WW2 that provided superior protection but Hilter forbade production because it did not please his eye.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=177353

This improved helmet is better known as the type used by The East German Army post-war.

[pintere]

This helmet talk is of total nonsense , only people who have never worn or used either, would claim some superiority for the German Army or the SS because of it.

I never said it was superior. I just thought it was interesting the US adopted a helmet so similar to that worn by their former foes.

[Dwight Pruitt]

But it isn't similar to the stahlhelm. Different material. Different suspension. No , and I repeat, no neck skirt. Instead of the skirt over the ears, it has bulges. The angle from dropping from the visor to the neck bulges is different than the stahlhelm and there are no ventilation holes. The dome of the helmet is shallower than the stahlhelm and it's bulkier than the stahlhem. Other than that, well, the two are almost identical!

[ChristopherPerrien]

Hi Christopher

This helmet talk is of total nonsense , only people who have never worn or used either, would claim some superiority for the German Army or the SS because of it.

The M1 helmet was not only a piece of armor that worked as well as any other at the time, It had a separate liner in its construction, which made it a useful bowl and at times an entrenching tool too. Even the greatest of armies, of the world in history did not have a helm that worked, as a bowl, as a shovel, and as a piece of armor.

I am not familiar with the comparative effectiveness of the M1. But I would not put any special value in its liner's use as a bowl or the helmet as a digging tool - this is neither here nor there.

You confirmed my first statement . The M1 Helmet's liner was not attached to the metal helmut, this allowed you to use the metal helmet as a bowl,- great for shaving and bathing in the field , and if necessary a shovel- it was used for this in extreme emergencies such as getting caught in an artillery barrage, and no handy E-tool. The M1 helmet was also used at times to "bail out" water in landing craft, LVT's and other boats when taking water and "fire". The Stahlhelm had a fixed liner which precluded these much of these things, although they prolly did use them as such, and gave us the distinct "bolts/rivets" you see on Stahlhelms, they hold the liner in.

Old G.I. or GI Joe of WWII was an ingenious fellow.The M1 helmet was a useful tool and symbolic of the American soldier in WWII, as the Stahlhelm was of German and SS soldiers.

When the PSAGT Helmet came out, we, GI's,when in the field, had to figure out how, to shave, bathe, and brush teeth, from a hot canteen cup of water, no mean feat. Willie and Joe would have been impressed,
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Excuse me for deviating from the topic everyone, I was totally trashed when I made my first post on this helmut stuff. Now I will go back to racing my motorcycle .