Why the Waffen-SS

[Pena V]

Jamie,

So who are you saying are elite in your opinion and why Pena V ?

We have already discussed about this concerning WSS divisions:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1676959

When I add the elite of Heer I guess I have to add about 10 PzD ( 2. PzD and 7. PzD for sure) and maybe some other divisions. I'm not able to name them because of the large number of division histories which I should know.
Why is it my opinion that these divisions are elite? Simply because they fought well. I can not give facts and figures because - as we have seen - elite can not be defined in a "scientific" way so this is only my opinion.

ljadw,

When people are claiming that some units of the WSS are elite,they mean that the whole WSS is elite .When other people are claiming that some German PzD are elite, they mean that all German PzD are elite .

How can you read peoples minds? When I said..

any late SS division between the 24 SS (Karstjäger) and 38 SS (Niebelungen) would be elite because they simply were not.

...according to your logic what I actually said was that WSS was not simply elite. But to be honest what I actually said = what I actually meant.

Redards,

Pena V

[starr]

The German army rated their units by battleworthiness (a I, II, III, or IV). Units moved up and down the ratings based on their condition. It was a subjective evaluation- I have seen units with a II having half the combat assets of a unit with a IV and so forth.

IIRC the 1.SSLAH was a class IV division in Normandy (lowest rating). It was well equipped but untrained after being smashed in the Ukraine.

Great piece of information. I believe not many here knew this.

[j keenan]

Yes its not an answer really, your argument for elite is how well they fight,leadership,awards won,best equipment,
So instead of using the word elite you should use the word best in my opinion,as the LSSAH leadership is very poor,didn't win that many awards or have the best equipment.The only true victory of sorts after 41 would be the disarming of the Italian army,total failure in Russia,Ardennes,Hungary.

[j keenan]

Also Pena V I would personal say the 24th SS-Karstjäger-Div. has more of a reason to be elite as it would have done specialised training and used specialist equipment for it's mountain fighting and not everyone would have been able to do due to altitude.Also the same for the Heer units as it was a specialised form of warfare.

[Marcus]

Nonsense posts by starr were removed.

[Michael Kenny]

IIRC the 1.SSLAH was a class IV division in Normandy (lowest rating). It was well equipped but untrained after being smashed in the Ukraine.

This is a favourite 'killer fact' of this poster. He uses it to reinforce his general view that NWE was a sideshow and the war was won in the east because he believes the Germans in NWE were second-rate Eastern front rejects. The Division was indeed withdrawn to reform and re-equip in the west . Vehicle stocks and training was low in June. But then the Division was not in action in June . It built up its vehicle and when committed to action had c.230 Pz IV, Panther and Stug. Constant parroting of the low combat rating for the division in June will not alter the fact the division was by July a formidable opponent.
Beware those with an agenda!

[Pena V]

Jamie,

I have to disagree about the Karstjäger Division for the following reasons:
1) It was a division only from 01 August 1944 to 05 December 1944 and again from 10 February 1945 to 09 May 1945 which makes 7 months only.
2) The manpower strenght in June 1944 was 1831 and in December 1944 3000 and never close to divisional strenght.
3) A simple test. If all the German divisions had been like Karstjäger Division in manpower and equipment would Germany have had better changes in the war? No.
However, I have to admit that Karstjäger Division was a specialist division but specialist isn't necessarily the same as elite.

after 41...total failure in Russia,Ardennes,Hungary.

This is what happens to all divisions when you loose a war.

Regards,

Pena

[j keenan]

Number of men has nothing to do with Eliteness
As the Germans were down sizing from day one,so by your method they could only have been elite in 39 i.e. Pz.Div.but that is my last comment on Eliteness

[Cult Icon]

In Hungary (fall)1944, 1.Pz, 3.Pz, 13.Pz, 23.Pz, and 24.Pz were very heavily used and were still rated IIs when they were at one full battalion of infantry (equivalent) and hovering at 20-30 operational armor. This implies a certain respect for these veteran formations even when they are down to their last legs. This can be contrasted to those formations that were fully equipped/manned per simple counts but were rated III and IVs due to lack of training/experience/leadership/morale.

[Dutto1]

One of the Fan boys biggest Heroes Sepp Dietrich the LASSH commander 33-43
LSSAH takes part in the Night of the long Knives 34
LSSAH Rgt. takes part in atrocities in Poland 39
Dietrich orders the murder of British P.O.W.s in France 40
Helping the Einsaztgruppen in Russia 41
Countless atrocities in Russia
His I SS-Korp command LSSAH,Hitlerjurgend
carried out atrocities in the west
6th.Panzer Army
carried out atrocities
All under the leadership of Dietrich, nothing to be proud of there

Hi J Keenan,

You have claimed that Dietrich ordered the murder of British POW's in 1940 yet despite requests you have not supplied evidence or stated wether it was personal opinion or based on research

Hi J Keenan,

Can you please confirm the source of your claim that Dietrich ordered the murder of British POW's in 1940. Both me and AHF member Seaburn have asked a couple of times out of interest. Surely a reply is the curteous thing to expect.

Regards

It seems that J Keenan spouts off personal opinions rather than FACTS. Despite asking for his source of his claim that Dietrich ordered the murder of British POW's, he has chosen to ignore the posts posted by me and fellow AHF member Seaburn. So I can only conclude that it is a opinion post based on his desire to deny that Wilhelm Mohnke had any role in these killings. Strange......

[seaburn]

I take it that 'jkeenan' has no evidence or he would have produced it by now having being shown it is a requirement of the forum 'dutto1' - it's been quite bizarre looking at him pining other posters down here to back up their statements while blatantly ignoring several polite requests to back up his allegations....which should now clearly be calalogued under 'unsubstantiated opinion'....totally makes him lack credibility IMO

[Pena V]

Jamie,

Number of men has nothing to do with Eliteness

When we are talking about elite divisions the number of men is a factor. If the number of men in a division is 3000 it can not perform normal divisional duties in a satisfactory way.
If we take your comment to an extreme and there would be a division of only one man - even if he would be the best soldier in the world - he would be elite but the division would not.

Regards,

Pena

[David Thompson]

j keenan -- You wrote (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1961810):

Dietrich orders the murder of British P.O.W.s in France 40

Several posters have asked you for your source(s) for this statement. Please document your claim. Our rules read:

If a poster stops asking questions and begins to express a point of view, he then becomes an advocate for that viewpoint. When a person becomes an advocate, he has the burden of providing evidence for his point of view. If he has no evidence, or doesn't provide it when asked, it is reasonable for the reader to conclude that his opinion or viewpoint is uninformed and may fairly be discounted or rejected.

Undocumented claims undercut the research purposes of this section of the forum. Consequently, it is required that proof be posted along with a claim. The main reason is that proof, evidence, facts, etc. improve the quality of discussions and information. A second reason is that inflammatory, groundless posts and threads attack, and do not promote, the scholarly purpose of this section of the forum.

This requirement applies to each specific claim.

http://forum.axishistory.com/rules

[David Thompson]

A post from j keenan was removed pending his responsive answer to other posters' polite requests for his source(s):

seaburn (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1961835; http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p1961883; http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9#p1962059; http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1962118 and http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1962697)

Dutto1 (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1961890; http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1962056; http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1962497

[dshaday]

Hi

The German army rated their units by battleworthiness (a I, II, III, or IV). Units moved up and down the ratings based on their condition. It was a subjective evaluation- I have seen units with a II having half the combat assets of a unit with a IV and so forth.

Is this the rating system introduced in December 1942?
Whereby Corp and Army level commanders submitted to the Army High Command subjective evaluations of their divisions' combat worthiness on a regular basis. The reports were secret and presumably candid. Category I- Very Good, Category II - Good, Category III - Marginal and Category IV - Poor.

I do not know how often they were submitted - does anyone know?

Dennis