Why the Waffen-SS

[ljadw]

Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf P 414:
Alles sollte nur Gültigkeit haben bis zur Ausbruch eines Krieges,dan wollte Hitler entscheiden ,ob er die VT als eigene Truppe dem Heer unterstellte oder
sie gar AUFLÖSTE,um ihr Angehörigen einzeln auf Wehrmachtseinheiten zu VERTEILEN.

It is also not correct to always use the term armed SS,the correct appellation (till 1940) was Verfügungstruppe .

Last point : when there was a putsch in 1944,the SS was conspicuously absent and did not intervene .

[Cult Icon]

Hitler's guard was not just the Leibstandarte. It was also the Grossdeuschland. He had two guards that provided security for himself. This is recorded in Spaeter's history. In terms of Hitler's personal security during the war, the GD was more involved it seems (I haven't read the SSLAH history though).

[ChristopherPerrien]

Last point : when there was a putsch in 1944,the SS was conspicuously absent and did not intervene .

They were absent for the first day , because the conspirators particularly focused on neutralizing them because they were the worst threat.

Which only again proves the SS was the "Praetorian Guard" of Hitler, and anyone contesting or subverting Hitler's authority would have to deal with Himmler and SS before they seized power, and proves who held the actual political control of Germany during the era. Ask Rohm or the SA or Staffenburg if the SS was an elite/specialized military force.

As I said very early in this topic the SS was "elite" because they represented the personal bodyguard of Adolph Hitler. And Mr. Hitler even after he has been dead for so many years still is such an influential constantly mentioned "force" and threat to humanity , it has to follow his "Imperial Guard" was and still is considered a highly specialized/ elite force. This big dam point is brought up in the media and by politicians everyday to cause the fear of their return( of forces of anti-semitism) and consider them the "definitive" example of the best/most evil forces of the devil himself.

To minimize and say they are not, invites accusations of anti-semitism, to say they were , concedes they were and STILL remain a force to be feared. Which is it?

Debating the "cult of personality" which surrounds Hitler, which is all this topic is, automatically gives credence to the idea Hitler's personal Guard/Force/Army was "elite", to do otherwise runs against all publicly accepted history for the era of NSDAP Germany, and what is presented in all mainstream "media", to this day. Look at the book titles in a bookstore in the history section. Hitler and the SS block out the sun for WWII history and sales.
The Adolf Hitler Forum , ain't it great.

[dshaday]

Hi

Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf P 414:
Alles sollte nur Gültigkeit haben bis zur Ausbruch eines Krieges,dan wollte Hitler entscheiden ,ob er die VT als eigene Truppe dem Heer unterstellte oder
sie gar AUFLÖSTE,um ihr Angehörigen einzeln auf Wehrmachtseinheiten zu VERTEILEN.

This appears on page 448 of the English edition that I have. It refers to a period (during 1938?) when under heavy pressure from the Ministry of War, Hitler temporarily placed restrictions on the SS-VT. Included was the possible break-up of the SS-VT you mentioned for the event of war breaking out. In August 1938 (once Hitler was in charge of the Ministry of War, and the officers who made him introduce the temporary measures were gone) the future of the SS-VT was guaranteed by a Fuhrer decree that reversed this last point about breaking up the SS-VT.

Dennis

[Marcus]

The posts about the SS and the 20 July plot were split off into a new thread.

/Marcus

[seaburn]

In the aftermath of the Korsun pocket (according to 'Hell's Gate'), SS General Gille insulted the Walloons in front of Hitler and others (including Degrelle) for being soft in the defense. 2 of the Army Generals also thought the Walloons to be less than reliable in the defense, but decent in the attack.

Just coming to the end of this excellent book and noticed that there is a slight error in your recollection 'culticon'. This verbal spat did not happen in Hitler's presence at the Wolfschanze, but prior to it. It was decided by General Hube that a meeting was to be held in Uman on February 20th .. 'In order to take advantage of their observations and experiences' of all who had been involved during the encirclement, relief and breakout. (page 360).

It also appears that it was actually only Gille who recorded his disdain of the Walloons actions during the breakout. Here is the pertinent passage on the incident:

"Hube then asked Leon Degrelle, as the only commander of a troop unit. what was his opinion of the matter (Gille's opinion that the breakout could have waited three more days in order to be better organised). Degrelle replied in 'lively French' that he thought that his men could not have possibly held on any longer than they did. To him, it was not merely a matter of personal courage but a question of sheer physical strength and endurance. Before he could continue, he was cut off by Gille, who stated that although the Walloons were very good while attacking, they were somewhat soft in regards to conducting a defence or holding out for a long period of time. Hube then countered Gille's remark by stating that he was entirely satisfied that the field commanders and troops had done everything that was humanly possible to hold their positions and had accomplished everything expected of them" (Hell's Gate - Douglas E Nash - page 362)

[doogal]

Christopher perrien wrote-
Which only again proves the SS was the "Praetorian Guard" of Hitler, and anyone contesting or subverting Hitler's authority would have to deal with Himmler and SS before they seized power, and proves who held the actual political control of Germany during the era. Ask Rohm or the SA or Staffenburg if the SS was an elite/specialized military force.

As I said very early in this topic the SS was "elite" because they represented the personal bodyguard of Adolph Hitler.

That the Leibstandarte were Hitlers bodyguard prior to WW11 is not in doubt and they are referred to as a Praetorian guard correctly in that sense. But this does not equate to elite in real military terms. They had the same arms and vehicles as the heer and when in combat illustrated that they were not trained as effectively as regular troops in all areas of combat.
Elite soldiers bear the hallmark of further and high intensity training.
The SS were considered a social elite (very different) This does nothing to support the idea of them as elite soldiers.
The Totenkopfverbande came from camp guards, elite units draw from the best and brightest of a society.
The VT which became Das Reichs regiments were originally special purpose troops for what ever the state needed but again there is no justification for the term elite.

While the VT and the Waffen SS fought in many engagements and were by the end of the war very experienced troops they were I would say only up to the standard of an early panzer division or mid war fallschirmjager unit, the idea that they were militarily elite (as opposed to a social elite)is a complete fairytale.

christopher perrien wrote-They were absent for the first day , because the conspirators particularly focused on neutralizing them because they were the worst threat.

They were not the worst threat in military terms but rather they were politically reliable and loyal to the fuhrer to death that's why the SS had to be neutralised, not cos they were elite.

[dshaday]

Hi

While the VT and the Waffen SS fought in many engagements and were by the end of the war very experienced troops they were I would say only up to the standard of an early panzer division or mid war fallschirmjager unit, the idea that they were militarily elite (as opposed to a social elite)is a complete fairytale.

Are you talking about the Waffen SS as a whole, or do you accept that some Waffen SS units were militarily elite (at some stage before/during the war) ?

Dennis

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

W-SS units and formations seem to have performed much as was to be expected of equivalent Army units. When selectively recruited from volunteers, mechanized and armoured, several W-SS divisions were amongst Germany's elite formations on occasion - and so they should have been given the resouces devoted to them.

However, there seems to be no "value added" in being W-SS per se. Which leads one to question "Why the Waffen-SS" was created as an independent military institution in the first place, unless for party political reasons?

Cheers,

Sid.

[doogal]

could you explain how a unit was "elite on occasion".

[doogal]

Are you talking about the Waffen SS as a whole, or do you accept that some Waffen SS units were militarily elite (at some stage before/during the war) ?

i don't believe i can agree with the term elite. if they were " elite" is this based on battlefield performance ? i agree the SS was a social elite. Were the waffen SS troops consistently better than there army counterparts ? where how ? were they consistently more aggressive yea but were they tactically and operationally astute ?? They had the same weaknesses as the Heer.
Were they placed in hot zones of combat for there tactical superiority ?? operational prowess how successful was the Waffen SS on the Eastern Front and others.

If they were elite due to volunteer status at the start of the war then ok...

[dshaday]

Hi

i don't believe i can agree with the term elite. if they were " elite" is this based on battlefield performance ? i agree the SS was a social elite. Were the waffen SS troops consistently better than there army counterparts ? where how ? were they consistently more aggressive yea but were they tactically and operationally astute ?? They had the same weaknesses as the Heer.
Were they placed in hot zones of combat for there tactical superiority ?? operational prowess how successful was the Waffen SS on the Eastern Front and others.

In your earlier post you commented that the SS were not a military elite. That "the idea that they were militarily elite (as opposed to a social elite)is a complete fairytale" .

I fully understand that "military elite" is quite subjective in definition and understanding. But you seem to have already an image of what military elite means to you, and how the Waffen SS stacked up to it.

If they were elite due to volunteer status at the start of the war then ok...

I believe most of the Waffen SS divisions during the first half of the war had a very high volunteer status. Wouldn't that mean that they still qualify then for being a military elite during the war?

For sure, special/extra training, soldier selection, morale, unit culture, man management can all be used to theoretically build an elite military unit in the context of WW2 and division size units. As Sid has pointed out, so too will preferential issue of certain equipment/training over other army units - eg tanks and artillery to make the division more powerful, and trucks to make it mobile. The SS heirachy had the will and power to make some of their units military units elite, and it showed in the results (despite opposition from the army).

I do not accept that it is a "complete fairytail" to believe that some Waffen SS units were militarily elite in their history.

Dennis

[ljadw]

why do you refuse to accept this? There are no proofs for the claims that some WSS units were military elite . No proofs at all .

[dshaday]

Hi

why do you refuse to accept this? There are no proofs for the claims that some WSS units were military elite . No proofs at all .

We have been over this question several times already.

You cannot scientifically/conclusively prove that there were no military elite Waffen SS units, or show sources to that effect.
I cannot scientifically/conclusively prove that Waffen SS units were militarily elite.
It is all personal opinion and interpretation of events.

Repeating "there is no proof" several times is - only your opinion and not proof of anything.

Dennis

[ljadw]

No :those who claim that the WSS was a military elite,that some of its units were a military elite,must produce proofs for their claim, and til today none has produced such claims .

The only reasonable conclusion is that they were not able to produce such proofs because the WSS/some of its units were no military elite .

There are no proofs for 1939,no proofs for 1940 (Wormhoudt is no proof),no proofs for 1941,no proofs for 1942, no proofs for 1943, no proofs for 1944 (Oradour is no proof),no proof for 1945 .

I have NOT to prove that there were no military elite WSS units,