Why the Waffen-SS

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dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1351

Post by dshaday » 30 Nov 2015, 05:03

Hi ML59
ML59 wrote:Out of these 900K-some individuals, only a very small proportion was made up of real volunteers, I mean men that asked specifically to join the W-SS. A very large number was simply drafted into the W-SS and had no choice at all or no voice in the matter. The Cossacks, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Baltics, Indians, Albanians, Bosnians and Volksdeutshes didn't ask to join the W-SS, they found themselves enrolled by decision of the German authorities that, later in the war, simply transferred to the W-SS all WH "national units" made up of foreigners.
This is nor true of the initial 14th Waffen Gren Div (Ukranian) - a new SS division was advertised and men decided to joint it. No equivalent Army division of Ukranians was raised to my knowledge (I am familiar with Roland and Nichtingale though). Various Volksdeutsch were also recruited voluntarily by Waffen SS recruiting agencies.

The problem is in finding reliable figures. The Germans liked to call the recruits "volunteers", even if they knew otherwise.

Dennis

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1352

Post by ML59 » 30 Nov 2015, 11:41

Again, things are seldom black or white, usually they're of several different shades of grey. The !4th Waffen Division der SS (Galician nr 1) was the only one specifically formed of Ukrainians. So, the matter it was a W-SS division was a secondary one, the main issue being it was formed "exclusively" of Ukrainians that received the full support of local nationalist parties and organizations, including OUN-B. The Ukrainians nationalists and right-wingers ahd no other choice, there was no alternative to them other than to enlist in this W-SS sponsored and funded unit.
I seriously doubt that even a single Ukrainian ever joined the W-SS because he shared the same racial and politcal believing of their German masters, it was just an expedient cheerfully used by them to get training and weapons that were intended to be used, sooner or later, in the fight for Ukraine independence, something that was far, far away from any goal of the German aithorities.


dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1353

Post by dshaday » 30 Nov 2015, 17:06

Hi
ML59 wrote: The Ukrainians nationalists and right-wingers ahd no other choice, there was no alternative to them other than to enlist in this W-SS sponsored and funded unit.
They always had the choice of not joining the German military. That is why they are volunteer - which is my point.

ML59 wrote: I seriously doubt that even a single Ukrainian ever joined the W-SS because he shared the same racial and politcal believing of their German masters, it was just an expedient cheerfully used by them to get training and weapons that were intended to be used, sooner or later, in the fight for Ukraine independence, something that was far, far away from any goal of the German aithorities.
Many would have joined the SS for other reasons. You are forgetting the large anti-communist motivation (Religion, politics, revenge etc). As well as the pro-Ukranian motives which, were hoped, could be advanced by aiding a German victory.

Dennis

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1354

Post by ML59 » 02 Dec 2015, 04:38

Dennis,

whatever motivation the Ukrainians could have to join the 14th Waffen-Grenadier division der SS, it was not surely because they believed in the supremacy of the German (Germanic) blood and the right of that race to rule over all the other (inferior) races, including the untermenschen slavs lke Ukrainians, White Russians, Russians. For some funny reason (one of the many contradiction of nazi ideology) Cossacks were not considered untermenschen so, in the nazi world, one of the Ukrainians historical archienemy, the Cossacks (actually semi-nomad russian tribes), were ranked higher than themselves.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1355

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Dec 2015, 21:23

Hi ML59,

Exactly!

The real justification for the creation of the W-SS as a separate armed service was political.

In military terms it was essentially just a clone of the German Army.

It is very difficult to detect either any military originality, or military "value-added" in the creation of the Waffen-SS to justify its status as an independent armed service.

It is therfore something of a mystery as to why it has such an over prominent place in the military historiography of WWII.

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 02 Dec 2015, 22:09, edited 2 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1356

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Dec 2015, 21:31

Hi Dennis,

I may well have repeated the question, "Indeed, "Why the Waffen-SS?" in the first place?" 18 times.

There is a reason for this, if you would care to take a look at the thread title above, which reads, "Why the Waffen-SS".

May we, with your kind permission, continue to address the thread title as written?

It remains something of a mystery as to "why the Waffen-SS" has such an over prominent place in the military historiography of WWII, when it was militarily basically just an unoriginal clone of the German Army, from which it diverted manpower and equipment and adopted military doctrine without any obvious "value added".

Cheers,

Sid.

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1357

Post by dshaday » 03 Dec 2015, 09:34

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: I may well have repeated the question, "Indeed, "Why the Waffen-SS?" in the first place?" 18 times.

There is a reason for this, if you would care to take a look at the thread title above, which reads, "Why the Waffen-SS".

May we, with your kind permission, continue to address the thread title as written?
As page 1 amply demonstrates, this thread is not about why the Waffen SS was created. That is why I suggested you start a new thread.

Repeating the same question over 19 times now, when it has already been answered, is a waste of space on this thread. No doubt, you will continue to deliberately ignore this obvious point.

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1358

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Dec 2015, 13:47

Hi Dennis,

This thread is about why people are inordinately interested in the Waffen-SS.

To find out whether this is justified, one has to delve into the Waffen-SS itself.

The fact of the matter seems to be that the inordinate interest is misplaced, because we are dealing with several layers of myth making and exaggeration from Goebbels during the war, self serving W-SS veterans associations after the war, generations of books that create a blizzard of W-SS related material and, more recently, websites such as Feldgrau, that pander to this. The "Belgrade" thread here on AHF was demonstrably symptomatic of this. SS-Heimwehr Danzig is another.

The result is a historical distortion that claims some sort of military exceptionalism for the Waffen-SS in German ranks that ignores important material factors of advantage, such as mechanization, armour, selective recruitment, etc., in favour of some mysterious quality of "Waffen-SS-edness" and fails to investigate whether there was any "value-added" at all in the creation of the Waffen-SS.

If the question had, as you claim, already been answered, we would not be on page 90+ of this thread, would we?

I appreciate that my questions and answers may not suit your narrative.

Your best response, I would suggest, would be to engage with the full implications of the question, "Why the Waffen-SS", not just the bits that suit you.

If the existence of the Waffen-SS as an independent military institution cannot be justified in the first place, then the high level of interest in the Waffen-SS is misplaced, at least in the military sphere.

You can probably fill in the blanks yourself, "......, ... ... ......-.. .. ... ..... .....?"

Cheers,

Sid.

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1359

Post by dshaday » 03 Dec 2015, 15:51

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: The fact of the matter seems to be that the inordinate interest is misplaced, because we are dealing with several layers of myth making and exaggeration from Goebbels during the war, self serving W-SS veterans associations after the war, generations of books that create a blizzard of W-SS related material and, more recently, websites such as Feldgrau, that pander to this. The "Belgrade" thread here on AHF was demonstrably symptomatic of this. SS-Heimwehr Danzig is another.
It makes no sense to combat other people's exaggerations by pushing your own flawed exaggerations.

Indeed the Belgrade thread, in which we both participated, demonstrates this point. The moderator pointed out this very habit of yours to you. You also made several disparaging claims in that thread, and you could not prove them when asked to do so. All because you had difficulty accepting that a Waffen SS officer did an excellent job.
Sid Guttridge wrote: The result is a historical distortion that claims some sort of military exceptionalism for the Waffen-SS in German ranks that ignores important material factors of advantage, such as mechanization, armour, selective recruitment, etc., in favour of some mysterious quality of "Waffen-SS-edness" and fails to investigate whether there was any "value-added" at all in the creation of the Waffen-SS.
This issue has already been discussed. Interestingly, you are the one who brings up the ideas of a critical "Value-add" and mysterious "Waffen-SS-edness", claiming that they must be there to justify the existence of the Waffen SS. This is flawed thinking.
Sid Guttridge wrote: If the question had, as you claim, already been answered, we would not be on page 90+ of this thread, would we?
If you refuse to take on board the flaws in your theory (when explained to you) then we will surely reach page 900, and you will still be repeating these comments/question.
Sid Guttridge wrote: I appreciate that my questions and answers may not suit your narrative.
Yes, your flawed theory and exaggerations do not suit me. The plain repetition of same, is tiresome.
Sid Guttridge wrote: Your best response, I would suggest, would be to engage with the full implications of the question, "Why the Waffen-SS", not just the bits that suit you.
We have already dealt with the implications of this question as raised by you. This comment makes no sense.
Sid Guttridge wrote: If the existence of the Waffen-SS as an independent military institution cannot be justified in the first place, ...
Your previous posts have not been able to prove your assumption that the Waffen SS as an independent military institution cannot be justified .
Sid Guttridge wrote: You can probably fill in the blanks yourself, "......, ... ... ......-.. .. ... ..... .....?"
Update score:
Question repeated at least 20 time.
Topic answered in over 26 posts.

Dennis

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1360

Post by dshaday » 03 Dec 2015, 16:14

Hi Sid

Let's look at the logic here.
Sid Guttridge wrote: The real justification for the creation of the W-SS as a separate armed service was political...
So now you do know "why the Waffen SS" was created. It's political, right? No need to harp on this issue any further, right?
Sid Guttridge wrote: It is very difficult to detect either any military originality, or military "value-added" in the creation of the Waffen-SS to justify its status as an independent armed service.
If, as you say, the Waffen SS was indeed created for political reasons, then issues such as military "value add" or military originality are of minor importance in it's justification. Which means we can ignore them as an important issue for the justification of the Waffen SS, right?

Note that the existence of military innovations by the Waffen SS are not excluded by the logic of this argument.

Dennis

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1361

Post by ML59 » 03 Dec 2015, 22:00

Dennis,

without entering again in the dispute about if W-SS were or were not a military elite (you know my opinion: they were not), the answer to the question "why the W-SS?" is simply because Heinrich Himmler needed to gain influence and a higher position in the Nazi hierachy, in direct competition with, chiefly, Hermann Goering that "owned" the prestigious Luftwaffe and was directly involved in the management of the war. In a war-oriented society like the Third Reich was, it was unthinkable of gaining more power without playing an active role in the war itself. From 1939 onwards AH had no other job than that of "chef de guerre"; he was not interested in anything else than war and war-related matters. in this situation the Chef of the German Police (to the eyes of the Prussian/German, aristocratic, officer corps a socially inferior guy) thought he needed to play an active role in the war, to take a bigger piece of the cake should spoils of victory come and to counter the influence of all his rivals.
Last edited by ML59 on 04 Dec 2015, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1362

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 04 Dec 2015, 02:56

Why the Waffen-SS?
People like evil and associate the color black with evil.
Please realize for the same reasons it explains the popularity and also the why of the "anti-hero" in so much history and fiction.

Why the Waffen-SS?

Darth Vader was the SS.

Such concepts sell books and tickets and develop a following. That is the answer to Bill's original question.

The reality is the SS reflected a personal bodyguard and private army and a "cult of personality" for Adolf Hitler.

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1363

Post by dshaday » 04 Dec 2015, 07:27

Hi ML59
ML59 wrote:... the answer to the question "why the W-SS?" is simply because Heinrich Himmler needed to gain influence and a higher position in the Nazi hierachy, in direct competition with, chiefly, Hermann Goering that "owned" the prestigious Luftwaffe and was directly involved in the management of the war. In a war-oriented society like the Third Reich was, it was unthinkable of gaining more power without playing an active role in the war itself. .... in this situation the Chef of the German Police (to the eyes of the Prussian/German, aristocratic, officer corps a socially inferior guy) thought he needed to play an active role in the war, to take a bigger piece of the cake should spoils of victory come and to counter the influence of all his rivals.
I have no problem with this as one of the main explanation for the creation and expansion of the Waffen SS during the war. There are other political/social reasons as well (some of which I have already discussed). As the war progressed the Waffen SS was given a greater military role by Hitler and it enjoyed his improving confidence. On it's own Hitler's approval is enough to end the debate over the justification for the creation of the Waffen SS (politically or militarily).

But you must also realise that Sid is raising more than just the political point. His other points have been discussed and the flaws pointed out. Despite all this, your posts and mine will be ignored and the same old questions will be posted by Sid again - as if the creation of the Waffen SS is a mystery or an unjustifiable act of madness.

I still suggest that a new thread on this issue should be created. This is the wrong thread to discuss it in detail.

Dennis

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doogal
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1364

Post by doogal » 04 Dec 2015, 19:42

Why the Waffen-SS?
People like evil and associate the color black with evil.
Please realize for the same reasons it explains the popularity and also the why of the "anti-hero" in so much history and fiction.

Why the Waffen-SS?

Darth Vader was the SS.

Such concepts sell books and tickets and develop a following. That is the answer to Bill's original question.

The reality is the SS reflected a personal bodyguard and private army and a "cult of personality" for Adolf Hitler.
Darth Vader and the storm troopers were made in the image of the SS i agree but Darth Vader was the archetypal fallen hero....
Image being everything.
I wouldn't use the term "anti hero" in reference to the W-SS. I would agree a general fascination for those who commit brutal acts does seem to permeate society. In the last 50 years the SS has come to symbolize and represent the human face of evil as much as the image of AH.
And in reality the battlefield experiences of the SS were little different from that of any German soldier, so image and concept have definitely played an important role.
When you say SS people don't think battlefield they think gas ovens....
The SS only wore black trousers and jackets to distinguish them from the SA.... black /evil .. coincidence could have been brown ...

ML59
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#1365

Post by ML59 » 05 Dec 2015, 03:12

The W-Ss were not to be confused with the A-SS, the only one that wore black uniforms. W-SS were only issued field grey uniforms similar or identical to the Heer, with their specific insignia. The only major item that distinguished them from Heer were the (for the time) pretty innovative and widely issued camo smocks. Later in the war, camo smocks became synonimus of W-SS for any allied troops.

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