Why the Waffen-SS

[Rob - wssob2]

The W-Ss were not to be confused with the A-SS, the only one that wore black uniforms.

This is a perfect example of how some myths will not die.

The General-SS and the Waffen-SS were BOTH managed by the SS-Führungshauptamt (SS-FHA) or SS Command Operations Office.
They were not separate formations, but both part and parcel of the overall SS structure.

During the war, many Waffen-SS officers transferred into General-SS positions (Kurt Becker, Otto Binger, Karl-Maria Demelhuber et. al.) or served as HSSPF security commanders (Josef Fitzhum, Friedrich Jeckeln, Friedrich-Wilhelm Krüger, etc). The Waffen-SS Medical Department provided supplies and personnel for the concentration camps.

The idea that the General-SS and the Waffen-SS were separate institutions was spread by former Waffen SS men eager to whitewash their reputation from the stains of Third Reich criminality, followed by the mythologizing of the postwar Waffen-SS fanboi culture

Read Robert Lewis Koehl’s The Black Corps or Adrian Weale’s Army of Evil to gain a good understanding of the complicated SS department structure.

The only major item that distinguished them from Heer were the (for the time) pretty innovative and widely issued camo smocks.

Plus a lack of education qualifications and training. For a discussion on the SS cammoflauge, see “Dithering on the Origins of SS Cammo” at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=209306

Later in the war, camo smocks became synonimus of W-SS for any allied troops.

Doubtful, as the smocks were replaced by the M-43 uniform by 1943.

[ML59]

I think there is a bit of confusion here. The A-SS was NOT a military organization but a uniformed, political one. Later on it became, broadly speaking, an internal security organization that controlled the German Police (itself a complex organization), the civil secret service, the security service, the KL system (except for POWs that were managed by the Armed Forces) AND the W-SS. Only members of the A-SS were entitled to dress the black uniform of the "Schwarz Korps", the w-SS as a whole were never issued black uniforms. from 1941 onwards all available black uniforms were retired from A-SS memebrs and re-issued, after minor modification, to the thousands of Schutzmannshaft (Schuma) being formed in the east. So, irony of history, black uniforms designed for the social-political elite of the superior race were given to the untermenschen militias that co-operated with the German masters.

Ah, there were soldiers that, for a brief period, dressed the black uniforms: LAH, for example.

[doogal]

the w-SS as a whole were never issued black uniforms. from 1941

But there is an enduring image which includes black uniforms, and while the W-SS as a whole did not wear black, they are without doubt remembered in that way.

Why the Waffen SS - cos the bad guys are always more interesting ....................

[dshaday]

Hi

Later in the war, camo smocks became synonimus of W-SS for any allied troops.

Doubtful, as the smocks were replaced by the M-43 uniform by 1943.

SS smocks continued to be made till 1944, and were worn till the end of the war. So yes, smocks became associated with the Waffen SS throughout the war - and especially in the first half of the war. Even though the Army also wore cammo smocks on a limited scale a few years after the Waffen SS introduced them. Also, the army did not (as far as I know) introduce a light-weight cammo field jacket/pants sets like the Waffen SS.

Dennis

[ML59]

the w-SS as a whole were never issued black uniforms. from 1941

But there is an enduring image which includes black uniforms, and while the W-SS as a whole did not wear black, they are without doubt remembered in that way.

Why the Waffen SS - cos the bad guys are always more interesting ....................

I think you're right, part of the fascination the SS had for so many years is certainly related to the "Schwarz Korps" image created by the war time propaganda. Post war Hollywood B-movies only increased the confusion.

[ML59]

To add some fun to the topic, maybe not all Anglo Saxon forumists are aware that in the 70s there was in Italy a whole series of softcore B-movies entirely focused on the SS and the sinister fascination of the black uniforms, associated to sexual exploitation of KL prisoners, tortures and the like. One of the most famous was "Helga, the SS beast". If you have a chance, browse the net, you'll find easily the original movies of that series.

[dshaday]

Hi ML59

I think there is a bit of confusion here. The A-SS was NOT a military organization but a uniformed, political one. Later on it became, broadly speaking, an internal security organization that controlled the German Police (itself a complex organization), the civil secret service, the security service, the KL system (except for POWs that were managed by the Armed Forces) AND the W-SS.

I have always taken the A-SS to be the traditional political base/origin of the SS. The A-SS formed a part of the SS. The SS-VT and SS-TV (and later Waffen SS) formed other branches of the SS. Being in different branches of the SS, the Waffen SS is different to the A-SS.

Further examples for the difference between A-SS and Waffen SS:
Foreigners joined the Waffen SS without becoming A-SS men.
Ranks in the Waffen SS and A-SS did not synchronise.
Military training in the Waffen SS was more specialised than A-SS.

The higher staffs of the SS would have contained A-SS men who, in their duties, would have exercised operational control over the Waffen SS. There were different offices for the Allgemeine SS and Waffen SS.

Only members of the A-SS were entitled to dress the black uniform of the "Schwarz Korps", the w-SS as a whole were never issued black uniforms.

The Black uniform was still authorised for wear after 1941 for certain members of the SS.

Pre-war, the SS-VT (and I presume the SS-TV as well) wore the black uniform as a dress uniform.

Dennis

[ML59]

Dennis,

it's OK, we're saying the same thing.
Few things:
-there was no military training as such in the A-SS, only selected units like LAH and, later SS-VT received basic military training
-as I said, the W-SS were never issued black uniforms, only individuals that were also member of the A-SS could wear one, if they had it already, on special social occasions and when not on duty; in any case, after 1940 no more black uniforms were obtainable for the duration of the war

[ML59]

The SS-TV were issued earth grey uniforms for everyday dress, later changed to field grey.

[Rob - wssob2]

I think there is a bit of confusion here. The A-SS was NOT a military organization but a uniformed, political one.

The General-SS was always a paramilitary formation, with armed “political readiness squads” (SS-Politische Bereitschaften) from the get-go.

Later on it became, broadly speaking, an internal security organization that controlled the German Police (itself a complex organization), the civil secret service, the security service, the KL system (except for POWs that were managed by the Armed Forces) AND the W-SS.

Again, I cannot stress enough how valuable Robert Koehl’s The Black Corps is in documenting the complicated dozen-odd SS departments and how there was no clear split between the “Waffen” and “General” SS.

Only members of the A-SS were entitled to dress the black uniform of the "Schwarz Korps", the w-SS as a whole were never issued black uniforms….

Well, technically speaking, the General-SS began replacing its black uniform with a field gray one in 1938 - field gray of course, being the traditional German uniform color during wartime.

But the History By Combat Couture (thanks, Osprey!) seems academically-lightweight. Organizational structures are more significant than cammo smocks.

I have always taken the A-SS to be the traditional political base/origin of the SS.

Directly translated, “Allgemeine-SS” means "General-SS" with "general" meaning main, regular or standard. If we think of the SS as a large paramilitary corporation, then the General-SS was the main component.

In 1938 Germany, this main component included

a) Ordinary part-time volunteer members of SS regional units

b) Full-time officers and members of the main SS departments

c) Reserve, honorary or otherwise inactive SS members

During the war
d) The number of SS departments grew (e.g. creation of the SS-FHA, the SS-WVHA, etc.)

e) The black-uniformed regional German national volunteer units faded away (basically everybody got drafted)

f) The KZ system became huge

g) The Waffen-SS was created and went from an “elite” ideological military formation to a mass army

The A-SS formed a part of the SS. The SS-VT and SS-TV (and later Waffen SS) formed other branches of the SS. Being in different branches of the SS, the Waffen SS is different to the A-SS.

No.

It’s not like the Waffen-SS was located in one building and the rest of the SS located in another on one of Berlin’s main streets.

Here’s some examples of how the system was structured/actually worked:

The SS Main Office (SS-HA) handled recruiting for both the Waffen and the General SS.

The SS Command Operations Office (SS-FHA) oversaw both the Waffen and General SS with regards to administration, training and unit formation. It coordinated its personnel replacement system with the WVHA. It handled promotions, pay and other “human resources” activities. It oversaw the various Waffen-SS arms inspectorates. It ran the SS medical branch, and provided medical personnel to Waffen-SS divisions and concentration camps.

The Higher SS and Police Leaders (HSSPF) could and did command Waffen-SS units in their jurisdiction. Plenty of Waffen-SS frontline commanders became HSSPFs and vice-versa.

The SS Personnel Office (PerSHA) kept detailed files, including genealogies, on all SS officers in the General-SS, the Waffen-SS and the Security Service.

The SS Legal Office handled all disciplinary matters in the SS, including the Waffen-SS. If necessary, a Waffen-SS soldier or officer could be tried by an HSSPF court staffed with an SS Legal Office Judge.

The SS’s Ethnic German Liaison Office (VOMI) included a Waffen-SS security company.

The WVHA oversaw construction projects for the General-SS, the Waffen-SS, the Concentration Camp system, POW camps and the German Police. Its Waffen SS and Police Central Construction Management offices existed in all major SS concentration and extermination camps. It ran companies like Deutsche Lebensmittel GmbH,which produced both meat rations and baked goods used in Waffen-SS and concentration camp inmate rations. (and of course, that its concentration camp guards were Waffen-SS troops, with soldiers rotated from front line combat units in the the camps and out again)

Foreigners joined the Waffen SS without becoming A-SS men.

Which is another way of saying that the SS was perfectly happy conning people into dying for Hitler while not giving them any personal or political gain.

Ranks in the Waffen SS and A-SS did not synchronize.

The SS reorganized their rank system for the various SS branches four times during the course of the Third Reich. The Waffen-SS had to adapt its rank structure to match the Army to facilitate inter service cooperation. (One can imagine a Hauptmann exclaiming, “What the hell is a Standarte, anyway?…)

[BillHermann]

It is truly amazing the energy that is taken to separate the two. The General-SS and the others. There is documented historical fact that they were not two completely different organizations. Without the SS and General-SS there would not have been the branches or key members that were so important to the cause.

As well the General-SS were very much military and not just political. There very purpose was military. Military does not always mean combat and front line.

[dshaday]

Hi

It is truly amazing the energy that is taken to separate the two. The General-SS and the others. There is documented historical fact that they were not two completely different organizations. Without the SS and General-SS there would not have been the branches or key members that were so important to the cause.

Perhaps you have missed the subtlety of the comments I and others have made.

The A-SS and Waffen SS had differences. They were not the same.

This is not the same as saying the A-SS and Waffen SS were two different organisation.
Nor does this mean that the A-SS and Waffen SS did not have similarities.

Dennis

[dshaday]

Hi

The A-SS formed a part of the SS. The SS-VT and SS-TV (and later Waffen SS) formed other branches of the SS. Being in different branches of the SS, the Waffen SS is different to the A-SS.

No.

It’s not like the Waffen-SS was located in one building and the rest of the SS located in another on one of Berlin’s main streets.

That is obviously not what I said in the above quote.

There are obviously similarities/ties between the various branches of the SS, but there are enough differences to justify an organisational separation under the SS umbrella. This is what the quote is saying.

Ranks in the Waffen SS and A-SS did not synchronize.

The SS reorganized their rank system for the various SS branches four times during the course of the Third Reich. The Waffen-SS had to adapt its rank structure to match the Army to facilitate inter service cooperation.

I was talking about the rank held by an A-SS officer not automatically translating into the same rank in the Waffen SS. They were not synchronised between the A-SS and Waffen SS. I made no mention of the Army rank system, or rank re-structurings within the SS.

Foreigners joined the Waffen SS without becoming A-SS men.

Which is another way of saying that the SS was perfectly happy conning people into dying for Hitler while not giving them any personal or political gain.

I made this comment to show yet another difference between the A-SS and Waffen SS. To which you obviously have no relevant reply.


Dennis

[Rob - wssob2]

There are obviously similarities/ties between the various branches of the SS, but there are enough differences to justify an organisational separation under the SS umbrella.

It is astounding how you continue to insist that there was an organizational separation between the A-SS and W-SS in the light of the evidence I have provided that there was no organizational separation.

Bernd Wenger, THE leading German scholar on the Waffen-SS, has wrote this:

“…the analysis of SS ideological model conceptions had made clear that the history of the Waffen-SS cannot be considered isolated from the history of the SS as a whole, which is in turn inseparable from the story of National Socialism”

(see p.viii Bloody Streets: The Soviet Assault on Berlin footnote #6, citing Bernd Wegner,The Waffen-SS: Organization, Ideology, Function, p.360)

[Rob - wssob2]

An interesting side quote, from author Michael Palmer, The German Wars: A Concise History 1859-1945
p.231

“…Conceptually, the German Wars was born during the 1980s when I worked as a historian for the US Navy in Washington, DC. I was somewhat taken aback by the near worship of all things German by myriad personnel in the US military.”

I suspect that the Waffen-SS has also been a subject of worship by elements in the US Army as well.