Why the Waffen-SS

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ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2326

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2016, 07:46

About the Kindermord of Langemarck (correct name is Langemark) :

1) The fighting did not happen at Langemarck,but at Bikschote, the Germans used Langemarck,because this reminded of Bismarck, Königsmarck

2 ) 4 RK (120000) men were committed in the region ,other RK were engaged elsewhere .

3) At that period 40000 students served in the whole German army,a small part of them in the 4 RK

4) Of these 40000 most were reservists, not volunteers ;only 10/15% were volunteers;if 10000 students served in the 4 RK ,not more than 1500 were volunteers

5) The " Langemarck " killed were some 3000,which would mean not more than 350 students of which onle a small part were volunteers .

6) Most students were older than 21 and were no children . Minors were an exception, a very small number .Men were called up after their adulthood,volunteers were accepted when they were adult .

7 ) During and after the war ,the German propaganda transformed the whole thing in the sacrifce of the German students for the Fatherland .There were even stories (invented of course) of whole classes of students who were commanded by their teachers .

ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2327

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2016, 08:02

About the salary : I did not say that people volunteered for the WSS because the salary in the WSS was better than in the army, I say that the salary of a volunteer was higher than the salary of some one who was called up and that this inflenced some people to volunteer .

About the theory that volunteers are better soldiers than men who are called up : this is not correct .In WWI 2.675.000 Britons volunteered;but there is no proof at all that they were better soldiers than the millions who were called up ,and whose number was probably higher than the number of volunteers .


ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2328

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2016, 11:01

The reality is that after 10 years of nazi ruling,there was little or no enthusiasm by the German youth to volunteer for the WSS,because the WSS was perceived as anti-religion, as having a lot of casualties and of being involved in atrocities.

The reality is also that a lot of the "volunteers" (not only Volksdeutsche/non Germans,but also Reichsdeutsche ) were considered by their commanders as scrimshankers, idlers who pretended not to understand the orders and who generally did not volunteer for a job, the old trick of every soldier : while refusing an order results in punishment, to pretend to be stupid remains unpunished .

The result was that the WSS was forced to accept draftees (and the army did its best that these would not be the best),to raid the occupied territories and recruit Muslims with their Imams ,who were only good to kill non Muslim civilians, and Ukrainians with their chaplains, which would have been unthinkable in 1942.At the end, even the "Untermenschen " (Russians ) were welcome .And to command this hotchpotch, the WSS was forced to beg for qualified army personnel : 7 of the 13 WSS General Kommandos had as chief of staff an army officer .

ML59
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2329

Post by ML59 » 28 Jun 2016, 15:57

ljadw wrote: The result was that the WSS was forced to accept draftees (and the army did its best that these would not be the best),to raid the occupied territories and recruit Muslims with their Imams ,who were only good to kill non Muslim civilians, and Ukrainians with their chaplains,
And the Ukrainians too were especially good to kill Polish (catholic) civilians, as proved by the actions of UPA during the war years.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2330

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Jun 2016, 18:09

Hi ljadw,

You write, "In 1943 the time of the countless enthusiastic volunteers for the WSS was over :". Nonsense. There never was such a time.

You write of 1943, "..... the WSS was forced to use doubtful methods to obtain new recruits, with as result protests and complaints everywhere ." Here you have the essence of a sensible point. Yes, as we have discussed elsewhere, they did use doubtful methods to secure Reichsdeutsch manpower for the expansion of the W-SS over 1942-43, specifically of the 16th and 17th W-SS Divisions, but no, it did not result in protests and complaints everywhere, just from some pastors and parents of those enlisted. These were sufficient for the youths concerned to be allowed to resign. Perhaps understandably, almost none did so.

You write, "there were no more volunteers:" Yes there were, just not enough to build a larger W-SS purely through Reichsdeutsch volunteerism.

In haste,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2331

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Jun 2016, 19:39

Hi ljadw,

OK, what was the salary of a volunteer compared with a conscript?

What evidence have you that this presumed pay differential influenced anyone to volunteer for the Waffen-SS rather than, say, the Army?

Volunteers are undoubtedly more highly motivated than most conscripts and this is definitely a military asset as self motivation is a key leadership characteristic.

I don't think you will find many who would support the contention that the British human material enlisted under volunteerism wasn't of generally better quality than that enlisted by compulsion later under conscription. Indeed, the conscripts were largely led by junior officers and NCOs from amongst the volunteers who came before.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2332

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Jun 2016, 19:49

Hi ljadw,

You write, "The reality is that after 10 years of nazi ruling,there was little or no enthusiasm by the German youth to volunteer for the WSS,because the WSS was perceived as anti-religion, as having a lot of casualties and of being involved in atrocities." Yet in 1943, for the only time ever, the Waffen-SS enlisted more "volunteers" than the Army. This doesn't look like "little or no enthusiasm" to me. I suggest you are exaggerating somewhat.

You write, "The reality is also that a lot of the "volunteers" (not only Volksdeutsche/non Germans,but also Reichsdeutsche ) were considered by their commanders as scrimshankers, idlers who pretended not to understand the orders and who generally did not volunteer for a job, the old trick of every soldier : while refusing an order results in punishment, to pretend to be stupid remains unpunished ." This is undoubtedly true of the Volksdeutsche in 1943, because in that year they underwent reluctant mass conscription to the W-SS in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Croatia. However, you will have to come up with some evidence to support the same point about the Reichsdeutsch volunteers of that year. What is the evidence?

Your point about the higher W-SS formations having to be propped up by Army staff officers is true, and I have made this point before.

Must go.

Sid

ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2333

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2016, 20:14

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi ljadw,

You write, "In 1943 the time of the countless enthusiastic volunteers for the WSS was over :". Nonsense. There never was such a time.

You write of 1943, "..... the WSS was forced to use doubtful methods to obtain new recruits, with as result protests and complaints everywhere ." Here you have the essence of a sensible point. Yes, as we have discussed elsewhere, they did use doubtful methods to secure Reichsdeutsch manpower for the expansion of the W-SS over 1942-43, specifically of the 16th and 17th W-SS Divisions, but no, it did not result in protests and complaints everywhere, just from some pastors and parents of those enlisted. These were sufficient for the youths concerned to be allowed to resign. Perhaps understandably, almost none did so.

You write, "there were no more volunteers:" Yes there were, just not enough to build a larger W-SS purely through Reichsdeutsch volunteerism.

In haste,

Sid.
Only pastors and parents ? Not so .

Der Orden unter dem Totenkopf (H .Höhne ) P 398

" In 1943 kamen dem Erbprinzen zu Waldeck-Pyrmont (Höhere SS und Polizeiführer im Nordwest Deutschland !)die Pressionsmethoden zu Ohren ,mit den Bergers Männer "Freiwillige für die WSS warben .Gegen einen Werber,den Hauptsturmführer Lange,liss den Prinz ein Verfahren wegen Nötigung einleiten ."

Translaten:" The SS and Police chief in NW Germany, prince von Waldeck-Pyrlont, became in 1943 informed about the pressure methodes of the WSS to recruit "volunteers" . He ordened against one of the recruiting officers (Lange) a legal proceeding because of these methodes ."

The whole thing became a public scandal , and for Berger (responsible for the recruiting) it was as if his world collapsed .He wrote in a letter to Brandt (secretary of Himmler) :it is a disaster that a HSSPF is collaborating with the catholic church .


There were also complaints from Wehrkreis V.

ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2334

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2016, 20:34

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi ljadw,

You write, "The reality is that after 10 years of nazi ruling,there was little or no enthusiasm by the German youth to volunteer for the WSS,because the WSS was perceived as anti-religion, as having a lot of casualties and of being involved in atrocities." Yet in 1943, for the only time ever, the Waffen-SS enlisted more "volunteers" than the Army. This doesn't look like "little or no enthusiasm" to me. I suggest you are exaggerating somewhat.

You write, "The reality is also that a lot of the "volunteers" (not only Volksdeutsche/non Germans,but also Reichsdeutsche ) were considered by their commanders as scrimshankers, idlers who pretended not to understand the orders and who generally did not volunteer for a job, the old trick of every soldier : while refusing an order results in punishment, to pretend to be stupid remains unpunished ." This is undoubtedly true of the Volksdeutsche in 1943, because in that year they underwent reluctant mass conscription to the W-SS in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Croatia. However, you will have to come up with some evidence to support the same point about the Reichsdeutsch volunteers of that year. What is the evidence?





Sid
That the WSS recruited more "volunteers" than the army does not mean "little or no enthusiasm " . Little or no enthusiasm is proved by the fact that the WSS had to use gangster methodes to obtain new recruits .

About the low quality of the Reichsdeutsche volunteers,already before 1943, H.Höhne writes that in august 1941, march and september 1942 Jüttner , chief of staff of the WSS, complained to Berger about the very low quality of the replacements,and the division commanders (as Eicke) complained that a lot of the newcomers were not interested and that the instruction was totally failing .

Sources of Höhne are the American historian Stein and a letter from Eicke to Berlin of 15 november !1941


Already in november 1941 was the opinion of WSS divisions commanders that the replacements were no good for the job .

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Gorque
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2335

Post by Gorque » 28 Jun 2016, 21:32

On the subject of Heinz Höhne and the reliability of his writings on the Waffen SS from the mid-sixties:
Obwohl seine Werke heute nicht mehr dem aktuellen Stand der Forschung entsprechen, werden sie nach wie vor unverändert aufgelegt. Das Buch Höhnes zur SS zählt trotz mancher Fehler zu den „Standardwerken“ in der Geschichte der Forschung über die SS. Dieses erkennt der Historiker Jens Westemeier in seiner Studie über den SS-Führer Joachim Peiper an.[5] Gleichwohl hält er Höhne vor, sich zu sehr auf die Angaben der SS-Offiziere verlassen zu haben, die er persönlich kennengelernt hatte. Höhnes unhinterfragte Wiedergabe von Darstellungen ehemaliger SS-Führer kritisieren auch weitere Historiker wie Jan Erik Schulte und Karsten Wilke.[6] Unter anderem dadurch sei die Fehlleistung zu erklären, die in der Behauptung liege, die Waffen-SS hätte nichts mit den Konzentrationslagern zu tun gehabt, wie es in der Hausmitteilung des Spiegels zum Auftakt der Serie über die SS 1966 lautete.[7]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinz_H%C3%B6hne

ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2336

Post by ljadw » 28 Jun 2016, 21:45

yes, the book was written some 50 years ago and this explains a lot of mistakes, but it remains something indispensable;I think on the pages about the intrigues at the top:everyone denouncing everyone, on the pages about the impotence of Himmler who did not succeed to force his lieutenants to obey his orders, he threatened, he fulminated, but, in vain, they promised to mend their ways, and nothing changed .

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Gorque
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2337

Post by Gorque » 28 Jun 2016, 22:12

As I stated before in this thread "You're too funny" Ludo. In this instance you defend a book that is nearly 50 years old while in another thread on a different forum you pan a 36 year old book by noted resistance author Peter Hoffman as
The book you are referencing to is 36 years old and was written in a period when Germany was desperatedly searching for anti-nazi heros :even some one dubious as Canaris was invariably presented as an anti-nazi hero.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... tcount=421

You can't have it both ways Ludo.

Latze
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2338

Post by Latze » 28 Jun 2016, 23:21

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
Rob - wssob2 wrote:Waffen-SS medical officer Mengele supervised the selection of individuals selected to go to the gas chambers at Birkenau. Does he need to lock the door to the gas chamber and drop the Zyklon-B canister down the chute to be considered guilty?
No. One medical officer (scientist, according to another poster here earlier) tangentially involved to the camp mechanism doesn't prove anything about overall Waffen SS involvement in the death camp core tasks.
In May 1942 the whole SS-Sonderkommando Kulmhof was transfered to 7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division „Prinz Eugen“. (Source: Stefan Höradler "KZ-System und Waffen-SS", in Schulte/Lieb/Wegner "Die Waffen-SS. Neue Forschungen", Paderborn, 2014). So, yes, Waffen-SS personnel was involved in death camp core tasks.

ljadw
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2339

Post by ljadw » 29 Jun 2016, 07:05

Gorque wrote:As I stated before in this thread "You're too funny" Ludo. In this instance you defend a book that is nearly 50 years old while in another thread on a different forum you pan a 36 year old book by noted resistance author Peter Hoffman as
The book you are referencing to is 36 years old and was written in a period when Germany was desperatedly searching for anti-nazi heros :even some one dubious as Canaris was invariably presented as an anti-nazi hero.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... tcount=421

You can't have it both ways Ludo.

Oh yes, one can have it both ways : presentng Canaris as a anti-nazi hero is very questionable, while OTOH, Höhne mentions things who 50 years ago were buried and were not PC to mention : involvement of the WSS in war crimes and in the Holocaust :22 april 1941 : Himmler declared that the men serving in the KL belonged to the WSS,the "Inspektion KL " belonged to the WSS between the autumn of 1940 and the spring of 1942 .Some one as Bothman (responsible for the murder of 300000 Jews in Kulmhof )was transferred to the WSS .

Of course, he also defends ,excuses the WSS , by the Tu Quoque argument : some atrocities of the WSS were a reaction on Soviet atrocities and, he also gives the WSS a military value it didn't have by presenting praising letters of army commanders about WSS units and generals, but "forgetting " to mention that ,given the political influence of Himmler ,and the lack of "zivil courage " (backbone ) of most army commanders, these letters are very dubious .

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Gorque
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2340

Post by Gorque » 29 Jun 2016, 13:37

ljadw wrote:
Gorque wrote:As I stated before in this thread "You're too funny" Ludo. In this instance you defend a book that is nearly 50 years old while in another thread on a different forum you pan a 36 year old book by noted resistance author Peter Hoffman as
The book you are referencing to is 36 years old and was written in a period when Germany was desperatedly searching for anti-nazi heros :even some one dubious as Canaris was invariably presented as an anti-nazi hero.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... tcount=421

You can't have it both ways Ludo.

Oh yes, one can have it both ways : presentng Canaris as a anti-nazi hero is very questionable, while OTOH, Höhne mentions things who 50 years ago were buried and were not PC to mention : involvement of the WSS in war crimes and in the Holocaust :22 april 1941 : Himmler declared that the men serving in the KL belonged to the WSS,the "Inspektion KL " belonged to the WSS between the autumn of 1940 and the spring of 1942 .Some one as Bothman (responsible for the murder of 300000 Jews in Kulmhof )was transferred to the WSS .

Of course, he also defends ,excuses the WSS , by the Tu Quoque argument : some atrocities of the WSS were a reaction on Soviet atrocities and, he also gives the WSS a military value it didn't have by presenting praising letters of army commanders about WSS units and generals, but "forgetting " to mention that ,given the political influence of Himmler ,and the lack of "zivil courage " (backbone ) of most army commanders, these letters are very dubious .
You've totally missed the point Ludo.

From:
Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi ljadw,

I would suggest you are making things up as you go along.

Cheers,

A disappointed Sid.


To:
Gorque wrote:As I stated before in this thread "You're too funny" Ludo. In this instance you defend a book that is nearly 50 years old while in another thread on a different forum you pan a 36 year old book by noted resistance author Peter Hoffman as
The book you are referencing to is 36 years old and was written in a period when Germany was desperatedly searching for anti-nazi heros :even some one dubious as Canaris was invariably presented as an anti-nazi hero.
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... tcount=421

You can't have it both ways Ludo.
So which is it? Is a 50 year old book with known errors authored by a journalist to have higher higher reference value than a 36 year old book authored by a highly respected historian.

I'm tending to strongly agree with Sid.

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