Why the Waffen-SS

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Post Reply
Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#616

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 Sep 2013, 15:16

dobromeister wrote:
Canadian warriors ruled Dieppe, didn't they? That says enough.
They certainly 'ruled' 12th SS at Norrey en Bessin and Wittmann at Cintheux.

The overuse of the term 'warrior' perfectly illustrates the juvenile mindset of the devotee.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#617

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 09 Sep 2013, 15:35

Oh that's a classic, "they are people like you and me." Well being human beings, and in that regard alone, I suppose you are correct. They get up in the morning and put their trousers on like you do. But that's about where the similarities end. The Waffen-SS were battle hardened in the kind of daily combat you could only fantasize about.
Oh please.

One of the most pleasant conversations I ever had with a W-SS veteran was about car insurance websites.

Information on the Norrey-en-Bessin battle of June 9, 1944, in which Canadian armor wiped out seven Hitlerjugend Panthers in a matter of minutes, is at

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=77797


User avatar
Kingfish
Member
Posts: 3348
Joined: 05 Jun 2003, 17:22
Location: USA

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#618

Post by Kingfish » 09 Sep 2013, 15:48

Michael Kenny wrote: They certainly 'ruled' 12th SS at Norrey en Bessin and Wittmann at Cintheux..
Pardon the hijack, but is it now the consensus that Brian Reid's account in 'No Holding Back' the true depiction of what really happened that day?

I remember for years the theory bounced back and forth between Joe Eskins in the Apple Orchard / Typhoons flying CAS.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#619

Post by Michael Kenny » 09 Sep 2013, 16:27

My view on Wittmann's demise is simple. One of two Units got him. It is impossible to know for sure who hit his tank.
The bickering over individual kills is a WW2 German obsession (see the catfight between Fey and Eger)that should not transfer over into Allied Units.
Wittmann was unknown to the Allies. They neither knew nor cared about the (mainly post-war) myths that surround the man.

All the 'confusion' was induced by believers who simply refused to accept a Sherman could get their idol. It was in their interest to muddy the waters and find a cause that ruled out the Sherman.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#620

Post by BillHermann » 10 Sep 2013, 05:40

dobromeister wrote:
BillHermann wrote:this always happens, the starry eyes come out with a hint that there may be a former SS member hanging about. Yes there are some, some have come and gone. They are people like you and me. I just wish all veterans had this level of appreciation but some how the SS get the most attention.
Oh that's a classic, "they are people like you and me." Well being human beings, and in that regard alone, I suppose you are correct. They get up in the morning and put their trousers on like you do. But that's about where the similarities end. The Waffen-SS were battle hardened in the kind of daily combat you could only fantasize about. Who are you kidding here, other than yourself? Good lord.

Canadian warriors ruled Dieppe, didn't they? That says enough.
You bring up the Canadians and you try and insult by using Dieppe, a tragedy. I wonder why, obviously a childish tactic from someone who has little ability to debate a complex topic. Obviously you know little about your heroes as you would not need to bring up my guys are better than yours. That is no better than school yard arguments.

Further do you see me using arguments of your nation (US) tragedies or losses, do you even see me slandering your Germanic heroes. I am being objective and leaving the rhetoric at the door. We could bring up many SS blunders and there were many, they would fit quite well in the context of this thread.

I can name numerous battles where Canadian farmers, teachers, loggers, regular citizen volunteer soldiers who gave your "Valhalla" boys with all of their training, cool tanks, fancy uniforms and ethos a run for their money. Again this would fit well in this thread.

Funny thing is many veterans on both sides that were in Italy, Normandy, Holland and Germany had more respect for each other than you have for the veterans and this topic. Your vision of the SS is fiction.

This topic is not about insulting Canadians, it is not about saying my guys are better than yours. This thread is for a debate on why the SS attract so many and why has so much SS fiction has become fact.
Last edited by BillHermann on 10 Sep 2013, 07:29, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#621

Post by BillHermann » 10 Sep 2013, 05:43

Well said and well put Sid.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#622

Post by ljadw » 10 Sep 2013, 06:12

I agree

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#623

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 10 Sep 2013, 06:28

The Canadians forces acquitted themselves especially well during the Normandy campaign - a fact sadly too often forgotten and/or downplayed with all the focus on the 12th SS.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 15589
Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 18:50

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#624

Post by ljadw » 10 Sep 2013, 06:57

There has been a dissertation by a Canadian about this question .

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#625

Post by BillHermann » 10 Sep 2013, 22:00

Getting back on topic and focusing directly on the fiction around the 12th SS. It baffles the mind that such a new division with little experience except for some of its senior members and veterans that moved to the 12th SS could be considered so elite and exceptional. It is also incredible that they would be considered so elite with such a high number of teenagers as well.

Even when you look at their lack professionalism and losses in Normandy one has to wonder where this comes from.

The only thing is for sure is their fanaticism which is not professional or elite.

One could even suggest that some of the Allied units that had fought in the Normady Campaign were more professional and many had far more experience and training.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#626

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 11 Sep 2013, 03:56

But the 12th SS Division's swan song was Normandy. It's performance in the Battle of the Bulge was lackluster by comparison.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#627

Post by BillHermann » 11 Sep 2013, 06:20

I am not getting into a discussion involving spin. We know there were veterans landing on the beaches in Normandy and in some cases and there were "Green" members in some of Germany's best divisions. Some like the 12th SS had a majority of "Green" members like many of the Allied divisions that landed on the 6th of June. There is no dispute that the majority of units landing at Juno were "Green". That is not saying that they were not well trained and that there were not veterans amongst them.

No one is generalizing saying that all Waffen-SS were poor as you seem to think, but they were not all gods as you have stated. Further having spoken to Canadian, British, American and German vets and I can say that you are selling a bill of goods. Having lived in Germany for over 7 years in the 1980s and meetting many an individual that had first hand experiences this is not black and white as you suggest. Even German vets have said that not all allied soldiers were green, the 82nd airborne is an example of a veteran unit that fought in Normandy, shall I name others ?

I have also met veterans from all sides that tend to spin the facts as some are far less objective than others. When you go through war it can get emotional, anger still persists and memories fade. Personal stories are often subjective. That is not saying that their stories are false just told often with personal viewpoints.

You are a perfect example to the answer of why the SS. You seem to want to rewrite history. This is not a debate on the toughest soldiers. It is a discussion on why the SS are admired by so many and why there is such spin and energy involving the SS.

If anything I certainly have got some emotion going for which I apologize. Finally this is not a contest which you seem to think it is.

Strange anyways.

PS I would suggest you not use terms like Japs.
Last edited by BillHermann on 11 Sep 2013, 20:56, edited 19 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#628

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Sep 2013, 11:13

Hi Guys,

The Allies had a shortage of experienced divisions in the UK in 1943. They had to go to the logistical expense of sending Canadians to Italy to gain such experience, or they would have landed with a sum total of one short day at Dieppe behind them. The British and Americans also brought experienced divisions back from the Mediterranean. The British found that some of the formations concerned certainly had experience but were somewhat jaded.

The 12SS Division took an indordinately long time to form and was crammed with so much prime, volunteer manpower that Albert Speer reckoned it was a waste of junior leadership material that could more productively have been used elsewhere. The destruction of the 12th SS Division has been likened to the "Kindermord" of 1914, when thousands of students were lost as line infantrymen, who would have been very useful as junior officers later in the war. I would suggest that the 12th SS Division was a failed experiment, for all the courage and tenacity of its members.

Cheers,

Sid

ChristopherPerrien
Member
Posts: 7051
Joined: 26 Dec 2002, 01:58
Location: Mississippi

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#629

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 11 Sep 2013, 11:32

All this talk of green and experienced units is making me ill .

I agree with Sid.

Both have drawbacks compared to units that have only been "baptised" by fire. The performance of the SS in WWII provides quite textbook examples of these issues.

Green units tend to be over-enthused and make mistakes and suffer higher casualties, witness the aforementioned 12th SS or the SS in Poland in 1939. Plus there are men in such units that are simply combat incapable/incompetent, that are usually weeded out after the first engagement, till then you just don't know.

Very veteran units have a tendency to be "burned out",under-enthused, brittle and often poor in combat because of too much of it. Witness the British 7th Ar Div after North Africa or the 1st SS Pz Div during the Battle of the Bulge.

So as far as combat experience goes, none and too much , severely affect combat performance.

User avatar
Ironmachine
Member
Posts: 5821
Joined: 07 Jul 2005, 11:50
Location: Spain

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#630

Post by Ironmachine » 11 Sep 2013, 13:18

So as far as combat experience goes, none and too much , severely affect combat performance.
The problems is that while "none" is absolute and equal for everybody, "too much" is very, very, very relative in every sense... and also quite different if applied to an individual or a unit. :)

Post Reply

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”