Why the Waffen-SS

[Cult Icon]

Thanks for putting up a copy of Manstein's response.

The German response to Gallop/Star looks to me as a worthy 'initiation' for the SS Korps. Not too challenging as to be high risk, but challenging enough to put the divisions to good exercise. Their performance, however, is discounted by the fact that they were not facing strong forces- what they faced were the greatly overstretched and weakened soviet armies (vintage winter of 1942) and most particularly their tank forces. Most combat accounts in 'Last victory in Russia' depict situations where the SS have local superiority over scattered soviet forces which usually have 10-20 tanks at most.

3rd GTA and MG Popov were down to 30, 50 tanks or less respectively by the last week of Feb. This is in contrast, to the much harder situation 6th PzD/11th PzD supported by 23rd PzD/22nd PzD found itself in operation winter storm. More difficult battles lay ahead for the Axis.

My guess was that Manstein was used to seeing better performance by forces of such size and excellent equipment status relative to their objectives, and thus sent his critique. 1942, and the performance he experienced was close to him.

[seaburn]

Thanks for putting up a copy of Manstein's response.

My pleasure !

'Cult Icon' I think your posts are wasted on the 'WSS merry-go-round' threads -you have a lot to offer on the subject of Kursk in general - you should dig up an old thread or start a new one which focuses more on the overall operation where you can discuss your analysis with others who have a similar knowledge on the subject. IMO.

[Cult Icon]

I tend to talk about subjects that I currently reading: I am currently reading the SS so the SS is on my mind. When I move onto other subjects, you'll see me disappear from this forum or change subjects...that's how I work.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Cult Icon,

......and reading about the Waffen-SS is remarkably easy, due to the massively disproportional number of book titles on it, compared with the German Army. This creates disproportional reader interest which, in turn, leads the publishers to produce even more books on the subject and writers to hype the subject even further. It is not an altogether virtuous spiral!

And that, for many, I would suggest, is "why the Waffen-SS"!

Cheers,

Sid.

[dshaday]

Hi Seaburn

The full content of von Manstein’ reply is as follows

In answer to telegram no. 266/43 g.Kdos. dated 22.2:
1. From the above mentioned telegram I infer that Herr Oberfehlshaber is of the opinion that my telegram Ia no 714/43 g.Kdos dated 22.2 placed an unreasonable demand on the Leibstandarte SS-Adolf Hitler or that its performance has not be adequately recognized. If Herr Oberbefehlshaber was of the opinion, he should have conferred with me before conveying my order to the unit.

2. Of the demands which the situation forces me to place on the troops and of their bravery and willingness to sacrifice everything, I am too well aware for it to be necessary to speak to me on their behalf.

3. The Leibstandarte SS-Adolf Hitler’s successes enumerated in your telegram had not been readily perceptible from the partial results noted by the Heeresgruppe, which is necessarily forced by conditions to give on piecemeal reports. Those successes are now fully recognized.

4. The situation still demands, however that the Leibstandarte to which the situation has dealt a broad sector in the framework of the defensive mission, wage its battles in a mobile fashion with short strikes. The larger the forces which can be concentrated on each strike, even taking into account the weakening of the rest of the front, the greater the success will be. I ask, Herr Commander of the Leibstandarte SS-Adolf Hitler to inform the unit of my opinion in a suitable form

Oberbefehlshaber of Heeresgruppe Sud
Signed von Manstein
Ia no. 714/43g.Kdps II. Angel

(The Leibstandarte III-Rudolf Lehmann p120/121)

That is a very interesting document to read and one that could open some interesting research. Congrats for finding it.
Also, sorry for the late comment.

From what I can see, Manstein’s reply is a business like reply between an Army Fieldmarshall (O.C Army Group South) to an (Army) Supreme Commander over telex. Hence the terse language. The Fieldmarshal is replying to an earlier telegram sent to him. It is possible that each point in this reply is an answer to each corresponding point raised in that initial telegram.

Obviously Manstein is putting to rest some discontent that has been raised with him. He says that he now recognises the LAH’s recent achievements. The LAH (one division) must have made some fuss to some important people !

We cannot read too much into point 4 because we do not have a copy of the initial telegram that sparked his reply. Point 4 may be a piece of new advice, it may be a repeat of previous instructions repeated for emphasis, it may be a reminder not to slack–off (after now receiving some overdue praise) and keep doing what you have been doing on a bigger scale etc etc. It is all speculation if we use just one side of the telegram conversation.

In any case, point 4 tells me that Manstein is taking some care not to overly offend the LAH by asking Sepp Dietrich to appropriately re-phrase his message before passing it on. ( I wonder what message was actually distributed by Sepp ?). My impression is therefore that point 4 is not a rebuke or lesson to the LAH on how to fight.

Regards

Dennis

[Cult Icon]

Overall, the results of the Kharkov counteroffensive (lots of killed, few captured soviets, high SS losses, very depleted soviet condition) show that there was room for improvement IMO.

I made a thread here addressing the performance of the SS Korps:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=211670

It is interesting to me that I finished Nipe's long, well researched book and ended with some different conclusions than he did.

[Cult Icon]

In the mass market (US) there's a disproportionate number of useless bad books and picture books about the SS. In the end, it's about notoriety I believe so SS sells and gets merchandising space in book sellers & contracts to write throw-away books just to make a buck. I don't recall ever seeing the better SS books being sold in physical stores (published by JFF,Hellion, or RZM) like Lehmann/Weidinger or a translation of 3.SS being made.

Hi Cult Icon,

......and reading about the Waffen-SS is remarkably easy, due to the massively disproportional number of book titles on it, compared with the German Army. This creates disproportional reader interest which, in turn, leads the publishers to produce even more books on the subject and writers to hype the subject even further. It is not an altogether virtuous spiral!
.

[seaburn]

Hi Dennis,

I have the exchange that went before von Manstein's reply as posted- but I don't think this is the right thread to put it up on as its going off topic somewhat, basically it is a listing of what the LSSAH themselves see as their military successes in the period from Feb 17th to Feb 22th. This being sent as a 'hot rebuke' for a written order from Armeebteilung which had demanded 'with emphasis that the principles of offensive combat finally prevail with this strong and mobile unit'.

If there is another suitable thread it could go on, let me know or any interested parties can PM me if desired.

C

[Dren]

Hello, I wish to know more about the Waffen-SS ideology and ethos - in particular where their fighting prowess came from.

What kind of manuals & and books were available/ mandatory reading for the SS soldier? Or was it nothing like that, and it was simply the general german militarism of the time that produced such ideological fighting fervor?

Would be much appreciated if you could supply manuals / books on Waffen-SS ideology in particular, but also Whermacht manuals & books are greatly appreciated.

Also, for diskussion, what are your personal feelings in regard to the Waffen-SS soldier - I mean in particular his fighting morale -- should they be emulated? Are they emulated by any other force in the world today? I have recently tried to find ideological training or fighting ethos/codes for USMC, SEAL, SAS and other elite units of the modern world, but I find nothing similar to what I belive the Waffen-SS soldier/officer would do - at most they tend to describe a few lines of good-sounding words to adhere too; honor , courage, integrity etc. But nothing "substancial" that would explain to the soldier why/how to fight to the bitter end.
I have this picture of the Waffen-SS and the japanese imperial army having similar ideological training regimes - would this be correct?

Im greatly fascinated by Waffen-SS willingness to fight to death - it seems so far from our modern world , even during their own time, that any help in understanding them would be greatly appreciated.

All works would have to be in english or swedish, I dont read german.

Thanks!

[Michael Kenny]

Im greatly fascinated by Waffen-SS willingness to fight to death - it seems so far from our modern world , even during their own time, that any help in understanding them would be greatly appreciated.

It is one of the worlds greatest mysteries. How did an organisation that 'fought to the death' end up with millions of ex-members writing their memoirs post war.
I was most impressed by the way Kurt Meyer stuck to this principle and refused to surrender!.

[Annelie]

millions of ex-members writing their memoirs post war.

Could you please tell me where I can find "millions of memoirs of the Waffen SS?"

Memoirs are my preferred reading.

[Michael Kenny]

.

Could you please tell me where I can find "millions of memoirs of the Waffen SS?"

Memoirs are my preferred reading.

I suggest you try Amazon UK/US /Germany.

Using any combination of just SS/Waffen SS will give you 10,000+ hits. A deeper search will considerably expand the number of books.

As it is well known the SS always 'fought to the death' obviously there are no books written after May1945!

[Annelie]

The suggestion is one that I have already done and haven't found millions
of waffen SS memoirs....in fact I don't think I can even count 30 or 40
and that is among amazon, and other book places like alibris, abebooks rarelibrary etc.

I guess you were being facetious, but I would seriously would like to read them.

As it is well known the SS always 'fought to the death' obviously there are no books written after May1945!

I must have misunderstood you when you said

How did an organisation that 'fought to the death' end up with millions of ex-members writing their memoirs post war

[Germanicus Nero]

The reputation of the Waffen SS as an "elite" is questionable.

To begin with, the capacity of an 'elite' unit is no better than one trained in the regular fashion. There is no task an 'elite' unit can undertake that cannot also be done as efficiently by a 'regular' unit.

By far the greater majority of Waffen SS divisions were anything but 'elite'. Their reputation is based on the performance of a handful of divisions. Take away the lavish equipment and rations from them, and they would quickly return to the same sattus as most other Heer units.

The Waffen SS would like very much for their Heer counterparts to share a great deal of the blame for atrocities, especially in Russia.

SS leadership was mostly unimaginative. They produced few officers of calibre. But to be fair, they were not placed in positions of authority to make the 'big' descisions , either, so it's probably unfair of me to complain of a lack of a Manstein or a Guderian. Gen. Wllhelm Bittrich was probably the closest they came to an officer with the intellectual capacity to make big decisions and stick by them.

I think the Waffen SS were a divisive influence, an unnessessary appendage that caused dissension in the ranks of the German Army. It would have been noted that the Navy or the Air Force needed no seperate "Super-performers' in it's ranks. The very presence of the SS was a thorn in the side of relations between the Army and the Partei, a source of mistrust.

In the end, though, the Army post war veterans got their revenge, by blaming the Waffen SS for their misdemenours, and succeeding in passing the buck to the 'super-soldiers' for all the bad stuff.

And that attitude remains.

[Maxschnauzer]

Don't forget that once you look beyond the so-called "elite" Divisions, later on in the war you eventually had a mix of foreign volunteers who enlisted to save their own countries from the Soviets or to take up an offer that seemed better than being conscripted into the labor force, some actual conscripts, some Divisions that did not perform with much enthusiam outside of their own backyard (e.g. 13th Handschar) and a lot of Divisions that looked more formidable on paper than in reality.