Why the Waffen-SS

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi DoP,

I agree that the prosecution of war crimes was selective and, even in the German case, the vast majority of the culpable probably escaped prosecution.

I am not sure whether the expulsion of Germans from Prussia was a war crime. It was more the manner of their expulsion that was questionable.

Had Germany not lost territory in the east, it would have suffered absolutely no territorial cost after unleashing a war of conquest in which up to 8 other Europeans died for every German. The Germans in the East bore the entire territorial punishment for the whole of Germany. Perhaps they should resent the rest of Germany for getting off lightly by comparison?

Cheers,

Sid

[DukeOfPrussia]

Hi Sid,

Agreed, many culpable parties went unpunished. Yet, for all the show of justice and accountability Nuremberg and Tokyo put for the world, it's legacy fell far short of its ideals. There is absolutely no doubt the WSS, Gestapo and similar Nazi organisations were responsible for millions of deaths.

Yet what about Stalin and his regime? http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/04/world ... talin.html 20-40 million people killed, yet we've not witnessed the "Moscow Trials". The Malmedy massacre was terrible, but so was the massacre of WSS guards at Dachau, for example. http://archive.org/stream/BritishMurder ... t_djvu.txt

If the rule of law applies, murder is murder. The unlawful killing of an innocent person carries the same weight as the unlawful killing of a completely reprehensible person. The law has to cut both ways, regardless the ideology. It's good that many Nazis got punished, yet bad that certain Allied parties got away with murder and rape. Two wrongs will never make one right.

Back to the topic at hand (sorry for deviating) I found this interesting article which may somewhat explain why the WSS managed to 'polish' its reputation in postwar Germany. http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 92984.html

Also, due to being declared a criminal organisation, the WSS was compelled to revise its reputation, and create an aura of bravery and loyalty, in order to gain some degree of sympathy and acceptance from the German public. On the other hand, the Wehrmacht was eager to shed its responsibility for aggressions in WW2, hence the downplaying of their bravery and exploits as a unit (individual generals were less inclined to be too 'modest', like Guderian and von Manstein).

[DukeOfPrussia]

Btw Sid,

My apologies if my most recent post harped on a point that we'd already moved past.

Saved a couple of drafts which I was planning to send earlier in the day, but somehow I failed miserably at syncing my PC and phone, and have mixed them up.

[Marcus]

This is not the thread or even section to discuss war crimes so please get back on topic.

/Marcus

[dshaday]

Hi Sid

The Waffen-SS was quite rightly declared part of a criminal organization. Out of 38 divisions, only one is not known to have contained at least one officer who served in the camps (and even this exception may be due to inadequate information). The camps were also a continuous (though minor) source of manpower for the W-SS. Furthermore, one third of the 1941 Einsatzgruppen operating behind the Eastern Front in 1941 were constitutionally composed of Waffen-SS men.

As you have just pointed out, the camp men provided a minor source of manpower. The Einsatzgruppen represented an even lower influence.
So your point is ...?

There was virtually nothing distinctive, militarily, about the Waffen-SS. It was essentially a clone of the German Army in military terms.

Since the Waffen SS had to integrate into the existing Army structure, procedures, equipment, military methodology etc I am not surprised that they are similar in that respect. The Waffen SS was not however a "clone" of the Army in all military ways.

Just as it would be too simplistic to say that the Waffen SS were NAZI Party members with training in using weapons.

All Germany's conquests over 1939-42 were achieved without indispensible W-SS assistance, and the W-SS failed to turn the tide of war over 1943-45.

Since the army was much larger that the Waffen SS (which was initially built as a small tactical force) the first part of your statement is no surprise. The Waffen SS assisted the army in it's initial conquests. In the years 1943-45 the army still dwarfed the Waffen SS in manpower and resources, and despite the assistance of a reinforced Waffen SS, the army failed to turn the tide of war. Lets not blame the Waffen SS for everything.

Why the Waffen-SS?

It still mystifies me. The inordinate amount of attention it gets, is bought at the expense of the reputation of the far more important German Army and therefore serves to distort the historical record.

For me the answer is simple. The Waffen SS was directly linked to Hitler and his ideology. Count the number of books written in that field!

The initial (and small ) military role the Waffen SS was given only exploded due to the necessities of war. So now we have: major rivalry with the army, political intrigue, fierce battles, heroism, morality, war crimes, personal agendas, bias, propaganda, international dealings, war trials, post war western politics, scapegoats etc. This makes interesting reading, and it happened over a relatively short period.

The army will eventually be analysed by historian in depth. Then more of it's hidden warts will come to light. The current historical record of the army is indeed distorted until then.

Regards

Dennis

[BillHermann]

Post war politics and scape goats ? Hardly this in In itself ads to the why, why do some think they are scape goates, there is little fact to back this up. Only subjective personal opinions that bring fictitious points to the discussion.

[BillHermann]

Agreed, many culpable parties went unpunished. Yet, for all the show of justice and accountability Nuremberg and Tokyo put for the world, it's legacy fell far short of its ideals. There is absolutely no doubt the WSS, Gestapo and similar Nazi organisations were responsible for millions of deaths.

Yet what about Stalin and his regime? http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/04/world ... talin.html 20-40 million people killed, yet we've not witnessed the "Moscow Trials". The Malmedy massacre was terrible, but so was the massacre of WSS guards at Dachau, for example. http://archive.org/stream/BritishMurder ... t_djvu.txt

If the rule of law applies, murder is murder. The unlawful killing of an innocent person carries the same weight as the unlawful killing of a completely reprehensible person. The law has to cut both ways, regardless the ideology. It's good that many Nazis got punished, yet bad that certain Allied parties got away with murder and rape. Two wrongs will never make one right.

Back to the topic at hand (sorry for deviating) I found this interesting article which may somewhat explain why the WSS managed to 'polish' its reputation in postwar Germany. http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 92984.html

Also, due to being declared a criminal organisation, the WSS was compelled to revise its reputation, and create an aura of bravery and loyalty, in order to gain some degree of sympathy and acceptance from the German public. On the other hand, the Wehrmacht was eager to shed its responsibility for aggressions in WW2, hence the downplaying of their bravery and exploits as a unit (individual generals were less inclined to be too 'modest', like Guderian and von Manstein).

This argument in defence of the Waffen-SS has been used too often and holds little to no weight. Murder is not Murder, planned, premeditated is one type and there are others. Context is everything and without it we end up with superficial subjective opinions. I would suspect that even intelligent Waffen-SS leaders would have agreeed. It has been stated here before that it is historical fact that the Waffen-SS played a major role in the the camps and by mid war were directly part of the camps and camp functions.

The senior level of the SS and Waffen SS and some Heer senior staff were well aware proud and responsible and leadership sets the standard. The SS was the parent organiztion, there was a direct connection. The Heer did not shed any responsibility hence the hanging of some senior Heer generals, Many senior SS tried to shed responsibility by hiding or saying I was only following orders.

It is often assumed that there was much glory and honour in the organiztion. I would suggest mapping out the 36 / 38 plus division and categorize and map out who they were, how they were organized and what they did and you will see far far less glory and honour.

The one key thing that makes them interesting is the negative, the concept of why they became who they were. The negative should be emphasized as much as the other aspects as that is who they were and one can say that during the war there was little shame from the SS and Waffen-SS. So there should be little reason to down play it now or compare it to allied crimes.

[Marcus]

Again, this is not the thread or even section to discuss war crimes so please get back on topic.

/Marcus

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

My point was quite simple, if incompletely expressed above. The whole SS structure was an overlapping continuum. For example, the Camps, Police and Einsatzgruppen provided, and/or received Waffen-SS manpower and all bar one of the W-SS divisions are known to have included officers who had served in the camps. Therefore the Waffen-SS cannot be institutionally separated from the whole criminal enterprise. However, the warcrimes commission was careful to differentiate between the SS institution (including the W-SS) as criminal and the individual members, who were not, unless convicted of a specific crime. Mere membership of the W-SS was not a crime of itself. Particularly given the role conscription played in W-SS expansion over 1943-45, that would have been a real injustice.

You write, "Since the Waffen SS had to integrate into the existing Army structure, procedures, equipment, military methodology etc I am not surprised that they are similar in that respect." I disagree. For military purposes the W-SS didn't need to exist at all, in which case it didn't have to integrate into the existing Army structure, etc. The independent W-SS was a political choice made by the Nazis, that could only be fielded in any strength by taking Army manpower, equipment, etc. It might have developed an original methodology or procedures, but does not appear to have done so significantly, except in the field of political education.

You write, "The Waffen SS was not however a "clone" of the Army in all military ways." I agree, and I did not write that. I used the word "essentially", because there were minor differences.

Yup, ".... it would be too simplistic to say that the Waffen SS were NAZI Party members with training in using weapons." However, the officer corps were largely Nazi Party members.

You write, "Lets not blame the Waffen SS for everything." I agree. Let's just try to tell it like it was, without exaggeration on either side.

Yes, yes, yes! You write "For me the answer is simple. The Waffen SS was directly linked to Hitler and his ideology. Count the number of books written in that field! " I agree absolutely. This is not, primarily, an issue of exceptional W-SS military virtue at all. The trouble is, that is what many or most of the books on the subject appear to peddle, because it is marketable.

I don't see that "The initial (and small ) military role the Waffen SS was given only exploded due to the necessities of war." The necessities of war did not require a W-SS in the first place, let alone its expansion. Apart from the Scandinavians, who were given early to the W-SS by political direction, the W-SS consisted almost entirely of human resources initially exploited by the German Army. Even the Danes and Norwegians only joined the W-SS at an average rate of four a day each, so the attractions of the W-SS, even on this preferred turf, did not exactly cause queues at the recruiting offices.

Absolutely, "The army will eventually be analysed by historian in depth. Then more of it's hidden warts will come to light. The current historical record of the army is indeed distorted until then." Until then, we need to keep the W-SS in its proper perspective.

Cheers,

Sid.

[dshaday]

Hi Bill

Post war politics and scape goats ? Hardly this in In itself ads to the why, ...

That is why I placed "post war politics" and "scapegoats" in a long list of subjects.

... why do some think they are scape goates, there is little fact to back this up. Only subjective personal opinions that bring fictitious points to the discussion.

Well some published authors think the Waffen SS were used as scapegoats after the war. Two quick examples appear to be: "Valhalla's Warriors: A History of the Waffen-SS on the Eastern Front 1941-1945" by Terry Goldsworthy; or "The SS: Alibi of a Nation, 1922-1945" by Gerald Reitlinger.

Regards

Dennis

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

I think Goldsworthy, if anything, makes the reverse point. He seems to adopt a harder line than the IMT.

If I may inflict on you (possibly for the second time) a review I wrote of his book:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... A#p1224644

Cheers,

Sid

[dshaday]

Hi Sid

I think Goldsworthy, if anything, makes the reverse point. He seems to adopt a harder line than the IMT.

On page 157 Goldsworthy clearly makes the point that after the war the Waffen SS were used as an alibi. Which is my point.

"After the war this process was undertaken against the SS. They were made to appear different to ordinary Germans, so in this way Germany could account for the crimes that were committed. The SS in fact became the alibi for Germany. "

Regards

Dennis

[Christoph Awender]

Hello Dennis,

Just because we talked recently about it.
A sector Observation and artillery map from 18.I.D.(mot.) (a Heer unit) from 1943.

/Christoph
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/01172.jpg
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/01173.jpg

[Satter]

I just like the uniform and SS runes.

[Waffen Grenadier]

The interest about the Waffen-SS is so high because they are considered as Elite soldiers, with determination and fanatism, they fought 'til the last days of the Reich. When you look closely, the enemies in films such as Saving Private Ryan or Fury are often SS, the Wehrmacht is I think less represented that the Waffen-SS.