Why the Waffen-SS

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Marcus
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#946

Post by Marcus » 20 Feb 2015, 21:04

j keenan wrote:There was also a Germanic Volunteer Office set up after the conquest of Europe in 1940 for all the volunteers who queued the length and breath of there respective countries to join the ELITE of the ELITE !!
Again with the "Elite" (even "ELITE of the ELITE")? Have we not come further in this thread?

/Marcus

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#947

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 21 Feb 2015, 08:06

H Sarge3245,
The main problem being that the Waffen SS vets were denied the post-war benefits (like pensions) the Army vets got from the German government.
In West Germany, Waffen-SS members were denied veterans benefits only during the 1950’s, but by the early 1960’s could apply for (and did receive) pensions.

For a more nuanced and accurate information about Waffen-SS postwar pensions, see

Did Waffen-SS men ever gain pensions
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=181563

The Brown Bluff
http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 92984.html

Germany defends pensions for SS veterans
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/10/world ... erans.html
They were left to rot in the street, and the ones unable to work (maimed, etc) were miserable. Of course some of the higher ups got help from donations (HIAG) but most did not.
A sweeping, incorrect generalization. Many former Waffen-SS veterans were able to successfully create a middle-class life for themselves - as amply documented in Danny Parker’s recent biography on Peiper. Kurt Becher, the former Waffen-SS officer who testified at Adolf Eichmann
’s trial, was one of the wealthiest men in West Germany.

This was the problem with the Allies declaring the Waffen SS a criminal organization.
The Nuremberg IMT declaration against the Waffen-SS was actually much more nuanced, and no, it did not prevent former SS men from earning a living.
Sure some members commited war crimes. But the majority did not.
So what?
Also the qualification of "Nazi party in arms" I think is not exactly true to me.
Division 1-3 were considered the elite of the German Army before the war started,
By no stretch of imagination was the Totenkopf Division considered elite by the prewar Army or the German populace. It was close ideological affiliation to Hitler and the Nazi apparatus, not military prowess, that leant any veneer of “eliteness” to the LAH and Das Reich.

and there are numerous sources which say the German boys joined up because they wanted to be part of an elite, not because of some Nazi attraction. To be sure, to be part of division 1-3, the requirements were tougher than in the Army.
While it’s fascinating that you would subscribe to this mythology, it’s just not factually correct.
Finally again I dont think your argument stands up to categorize the entire W-SS as criminal just because one member was a war criminal in one division.
Your argument is the “one-bad apple” fallacy (as in one bad apple doesn’t spoil the whole bunch). Waffen-SS criminality isn’t dependent on individual misconduct but the participation of entire units in repression, genocide and criminal behavior. The SS Cavalry Brigade murdered tens of thousands of civilians in the late summer of 1941 as part of state-sanctioned genocide. The Leibstandarte Training and Replacement unit helped round up Berlin Jews for deportation. Multiple Waffen-SS divisions murdered civilians and captured POWs, violating the existing rules of war, as part of tactical standard operating procedures.
Good example is Mengele in the SS-Wiking (a division which was particularely outstanding on the E-Front and always appreciated by its Army counterparts).
And a division that supported the Einsatzguppen in the 1941-42 period and murdered Polish civilians in 1944.
So to sum up...As I said in my previous comment: I fully agree Waffen SS performance shouldnt be glorified as its sub-par mostly to regular Heer divisions. But at the same time I believe it was mistake to declare them criminals post war.
If it makes you feel better, many senior Waffen-SS officers complicit in the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians (Magill and Reinefarth spring to mind) got off scott-free.
I think that the main criminals were in non combat branches of the SS, which is something Himmler probably intended doing (grouping them under one umbrella) to "make them share the burden of crimes" in a sick way if anything happened. Unfortunately for the W-SS, it did. And many boys who fought courageously were branded criminals due to the crimes of other branches (totenkopfverbande, Allgemeine SS, Etc).
This is the black hat/white hat Waffen-SS fallacy (i.e. the General SS were the black hats that did all the SS crimes, and the Waffen-SS were the good white hats that never did anything bad.) Again, its interesting that this mythology persists, but its factually incorrect. Read up on incidents like Oradour and Sant’Anna d’Stazemma to get a more factually-accurate knowledge of Waffen-SS criminality.


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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#948

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 21 Feb 2015, 08:36

Hi Pena V,
the theoretical officer training was roughly the same.
Actually, no. I’d posit the Army had the more advanced, sophisticated officer training.

Waffen-SS senior officers had to take Army courses (for example the Division Commanders Training Course) to learn the required skills for leading large units.

Maybe the biggest difference was that the SS officers were true believers of the course and thus "tried harder”.
In other words, ideological affinity to Nazi worldview.

However, this is a minor difference. The real difference was the fighting man.
Oh please. There are plenty of instances of Waffen-SS troops performing poorly.

The SS required a signed agreement for years of service concerning their volunteers.
Ahhh… the Wehrmacht also required a sign agreement. (Conscription, anyone?)

The Army used conscripts.
As did the Waffen-SS, even back in 1940 when it forced General-SS men into the Totenkopfverbande.
Now the question is: If you were a commander and could freely choose would you like to command volunteers who wanted to be professionals or conscripts? Which one is elite?
I’d take the 7th Panzer Division in 1940.

Hi Waffen Grenadier,
the LSSAH you had to be registered in the Nazi Party.
Not necessarily, though the overwhelming majority of LSSAH men circa 1939 probably were.

Everyone seems to forget that membership in the SS was certainly proof enough of one’s ideological commitment to the Nazi cause.
The SS was part of the Nazi Party, albeit an independent part.

Hello again Sarge,
PRE-WAR, to join the SS divisions 1-3 was considered prestigious and elite.
The reason was that the REQUIREMENTS set (aryan ancestry, height, physical fitness, etc) were "superior" which gave an air of mysticism to these units. Kind of like joining a pretorian guard of some sort in Ancient Rome.

Never did I say that these divisions THEN performed better than the Army during the war.
I merely state the attraction of these divisions BEFORE the war.
While the height requirement did exist for the LSSAH, that’s more about parade ground peacock-strutting than military prowess. Himmler had to give up on the “no-filled teeth” requirement. In many respects, the Waffen-SS “stringent acceptance requirements” were superficial racist gobbledegook and did not include requirements that would made a difference, such as education level.

Totalitarian governments tend to form party-armies. What makes them elite is their affiliation with the dictator.

Short soldiers are sometimes good soldiers. Ask Napoleon.

Again, the Totenkopf troops were by no means considered elite in the prewar period. The Army even got into a dust-up with the SS about their being issued field-gray uniforms. (not to mention the fact they were officially first classified as civil servants).

Read Syndor’s Soldiers of Destruction to learn more about how the SSTK troops were poorly perceived.

Hey J keenan
There was also a Germanic Volunteer Office set up after the conquest of Europe in 1940 for all the volunteers who queued the length and breath of there respective countries to join the ELITE of the ELITE !!
A considerably smaller office than the ones set up to process the millions of European slave laborers that worked in Third Reich factories.

Hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen are forced laborers in the Reich through the STO program and barely 10, 000 Frenchmen sign up for the LVF/Waffen-SS. It boggles the mind that we focus on the latter at the expense of the former. Even the Free French Army had a better performing (and armored!) division than the Waffen-SS ever formed for its French troops.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#949

Post by BillHermann » 21 Feb 2015, 09:41

Anyone who does the black white thing with the Waffen-SS is completely out of touch wth the history and make up of the organization, they were very much one and the diffrences were few. The labelling and the separation had little to do with actual need and near the end of the war the Waffen-SS was the SS.

The concept that there was an evil SS doing all the killings and an honest elite nazi Waffen-SS force fighting battles is false.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#950

Post by Harro » 21 Feb 2015, 11:14

Sarge3525 wrote:I think that the main criminals were in non combat branches of the SS, which is something Himmler probably intended doing (grouping them under one umbrella) to "make them share the burden of crimes" in a sick way if anything happened.
Unfortunately for the W-SS, it did. And many boys who fought courageously were branded criminals due to the crimes of other branches (totenkopfverbande, Allgemeine SS, Etc).
From my upcoming book:
"Um 20.45 Uhr erschienen die Deutschen vor dem Haus Legaye und warfen eine Granate in den ersten Keller, wo die meisten Kinder Zuflucht gefunden hatten. Niemand wurde verletzt, aber wenige Augenblicke später wurde eine zweite Granate in denselben Keller geworfen. Nur Frau Grégoire wurde am Bein getroffen. Dann hörte man am Oberlicht des Kellers den Ruf „Heraus“, und dies mehrere Male. Die 30 Jahre alte Regine Grégoire, geboren Heuser, stammte aus Manderfeld und konnte Deutsch; ihre Gefährten baten sie voller Erschrecken, sie soll den Soldaten zurufen, der Keller nur von Zivilisten besetzt war, und dass sie um Hilfe baten. Frau Grégoire erfüllte diesen Wunsch, aber die Deutschen schrien weiter „Heraus“. Frau Grégoire entschloß sich, als erste hinauszugehen, begleitet von ihren beiden Kindern. Sie wiederholte, dass sich im Keller nur Zivilisten aufhielten, und teilte mit, dass sie selbst verletzt war und dass sich dort nur Frauen und Kinder und zwei alte Menschen aufhielten. In diesem Moment befand sie sich einem Dutzend SS-Soldaten gegenüber, die sie aufforderten, ihren Gefährten zuzurufen, aus dem Keller herauszukommen. Dieser Befehl wurde ausgeführt, und alle Personen, die sich im Keller befanden, kamen nach oben und begaben sich in den Garten des Hauses. Die Soldaten wandten sich an Frau Grégoire und fragten sie, ob alle da seien, ob niemand im Keller zurückgeblieben war. Angesprochene tat so, als zählte sie die Anwesenden, und bestätigte, dass alle da seien. In diesem Augenblick informierte Anne-Marie Daisomont Frau Grégoire, dass ihre Eltern und ihre Schwester vor den anderen den Keller verlassen hatten. Sie wusste nicht, dass diese Unglücklichen bereits kaltblütig erschossen worden waren. In dem Augenblick nämlich, als die Granaten im Keller explodiert waren, war Marie-Thérèse Daisomont ohnmächtig geworden. Darauf hatte ihre Eltern die Kellertür geöffnet, die nach außen führte, um Luft hereinzulassen. Die Deutschen hatten dies gemerkt und sie herausgerufen, als wollten sie ihnen helfen. Als die drei heraustraten, wurden sie erschossen. Trotz der Aussage von Fraulein Daisomont beharrte Frau Grégoire darauf, dass alle anwesend waren, die sich im Keller befunden hatten. Sie wurde gezwungen, sofort die Richtigkeit ihrer Aussage nachzuprüfen. Als die Soldaten in diesem Punkt beruhigt waren, ließen sie den Zivilisten durch Frau Grégoire ausrichten, sich niederzuhocken oder sich im Garten des Hauses niederzusetzen. Sie hielten Frau Grégoire und ihre Kinder beiseite, in ihrer Nähe. So entkam sie dem Tod. Dann, gegen 21.00 Uhr, wurde das Verbrechen ausgeführt. Die Zivilisten, in der Mehrzal Frauen, junge Mädchen und Kinder, wurden auf der Stelle von zwei Soldaten erschossen, der eine bewaffnet mit einem Revolver, der andere mit einem Gewehr. Frau Grégoire blieb Gefangene der Deutschen bis zum folgenden Freitag, als die Amerikaner sie befreiten."
My translation:
"At 20.45 clock, the Germans appeared before the Legaye House and threw a grenade into the first basement, where most of the children had taken refuge. No one was injured, but a few moments later, a second grenade was thrown into the same cellar. Only Mrs. Gregoire was hit in the leg. Then we heard from the fanlight of the cellar a shout "Heraus!" ("Out!"), and this several times. The 30-year-old Regine Grégoire, born Heuser, came from Manderfeld (note: a hamlet in the East Cantons) and spoke German; her companions asked her full of fright, that she should call on the soldiers that the basement was occupied only by civilians and that they asked for help. Ms. Grégoire fulfilled this wish, but the Germans shouted "Heraus" again. Ms. Grégoire decided to go out first, accompanied by her two children. She repeated that only civilians were staying in the basement, and stated that she was injured and that there are only women and children and two old people there. At that moment she stood opposite a dozen SS soldiers who asked her to call out to her companions, get out of the basement. This command was executed, and all the people who were in the basement, came up and went into the garden of the house. The soldiers turned to Mrs. Grégoire and asked her if everyone was as present and no one had stayed behind in the cellar. Addressed pretended she counted those present and confirmed that they were all there. At this moment Anne-Marie Daisomont informed Ms. Grégoire, that her parents and her sister had left the basement before the others. She did not know that these unfortunates had already been shot in cold blood. Namely at the moment, when the shells had exploded in the basement, Marie-Thérèse Daisomont had fainted. Then her parents had opened the cellar door, that led outside, to let in fresh air. The Germans had noticed this and called out to them, as if they wanted to help them. When the three came out, they were shot. Despite the testimony of Miss Daisomont, Ms. Grégoire insisted that all who had been in the basement where present. She was forced to immediately verify the correctness of her statement. When the soldiers were reassured on this point, they had Ms. Grégoire instruct the civilians to squat down or sit down in the garden of the house. They held Ms. Grégoire and her children aside, near them. That's how she escaped death. Then, at about 21.00 hrs, the crime was carried out. The civilians, mostly women, young girls and children, were shot on the spot by two soldiers, one armed with a revolver, the other with a gun. Ms. Grégoire remained prisoner of the Germans until the following Friday when the Americans liberated her."

A description of the faul actions of the Einsatzkommandos, the totenkopfverbände? Nope, its the courageous fighting of the elite of the elite, the Leibstandarte. The date is December 19, 1944, the time is 21.00 hrs, the location the home of the Legaye family on the western edge of Stavelot, the culprits members of 3rd platoon, 2nd company, SS-Panzer-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 1 LSSAH and the victims:

Marie Prince-Demaret (42 years old)
Yvon Prince (14)
Elsa Prince (12)
Pol Prince (4)

Prosper Legaye (66)
Marie Legaye-Crismer (63)
Jeanne Legaye (40)
Alice Legaye (39)
Marie-Jeanne Legaye (9)

Octavie Lecocq (68)
Maria Daisomont-Lecocq (49)
Anne-Marie Daisomont (18)
Marie-Thérèse Daisomont (14)

Elisabeth Rouxhet-Vissers (41)
Roland Rouxhet (14)
Marc Rouxhet (12)
Monique Rouxhet (7)
Bruno Rouxhet (7)

Maria Mignon-Schomus (32)
Marie-Josée Mignon (6)
Monique Mignon (4)

Mariette Corbisier-Depas (35)
Juliette Depas (5)
Joseph Depas (70)

Was it an isolated incident? No, earlier that day the same battalion had murdered over 100 other civilians in Trois-Ponts and the hamlets Ster, Parfondruy and Renardmont. The same battalion was also responsible for the execution of 11 Afro-American soldiers in Wéreth on December 17 and the execution of 10 Americans at Petit-Spay on December 21.

So many warcrimes in such a short space of time and committed by members of all ranks from all companies. And not just during this campaign: see "seaburns" contributions about the same recce battalion at the Eastern Front under Kurt "Panzermeyer". That's not the work of a few bad apples. It was a mindset.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#951

Post by dshaday » 21 Feb 2015, 12:48

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: I can understand the resentment of those Germans conscripted into the W-SS late in the war, if they did not get the same benefits as other conscripts, but they can only have had 9 months service, at most. However, the volunteers and regulars have little to complain about as they chose between Army and W-SS service.
Where did you get the idea of a max of 9 months service by conscripts?

See testimony of Robert Brill at
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tg ... 5-06.shtml

My emphasis in bold. When the Waffen SS needed men or specific skills they drafted people - and not just in the last 9 months of the war.

"Owing to the expansion of these representative tasks and guard duties, the Verfugungstruppe in the years 1934 to 1939 was made up of volunteers from all the levels of the German population. At the beginning of the war the Verfugungstruppe had about 18,000 men. Service in the Verfugungstruppe was military service. In addition to that, there was in existence on the 1st September, 1939, the Death's Head Unit which hid about 8,000 men. To these two units were added about another 36,000 men between the autumn of 1939 and the spring of 1940. These men had been drafted as an additional force for the police as a result of emergency service measures. These 36,000 men together with the Verfugungstruppe and the Death's Head Units made up the Waffen SS.

A directive of the High Command of the Wehrmacht in the spring of 1940, which appeared later in December, 1940, as an army service regulation, dealt with the military supervision, composition and recruiting of the Waffen SS. By the beginning of 1940 we had 100,000 men in the Waffen SS. There were 36,000 who had been drafted and 64,000 volunteers.

In the same year, 1940, we had 50,000 more recruits for the Waffen SS; 2,000 to 3,000 were drafted and the others were volunteers. In 1941 we received 70,000 men, 3,000 drafted, the rest volunteers. In 1942, 30,000 men were drafted.

At the end of the war we had about 550,000 men in the Waffen SS. Up to October, 1944, there were 320,000 known casualties including dead, missing, and seriously wounded. Considering that the majority of the dead were our volunteers - I know this from carefully compiled reports on casualties - it results from this that at the end of the war there were more draftees in the Waffen SS than volunteers.

For four years I worked on this material. I prepared statistics and made reports so that I have retained these figures in mind very accurately. In my office in Berlin I handled card indexes, etc. They were there when I left in January, 1945.

Yes. I have already mentioned the 36,000 men who were drafted by emergency decrees. In addition, in 1940 we drafted men from the police to set up our Field Gendarmerie. We drafted men from the Reichspost to secure our Army mail. We drafted the civilian employees of the SS-Verfugungstruppe (Emergency Troops) in 1941. We frequently drafted personnel for our cavalry units from the army. I recall further that about 800 army men were drafted into the Waffen SS in the summer of 1941. Doctors and technicians also were drafted in 1940 and 1941 - in addition, resettled persons who had become subject to military duty. Yes, even with the resettlement details (Umsiedlungskommandos) we drafted men who did not report voluntarily. In 1942 we deviated considerably from the volunteer basis. About 15,000 racial Germans were drafted into our division "Prinz Eugen," about 10,000 men were drafted from the police and the army for the police division, and 2,000 men of the Reichspost who were with the army as so-called front auxiliaries were drafted into the Waffen SS. They were civilian post-office employees with the army.


Regards

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#952

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Feb 2015, 13:18

Hi Dennis,

As I understand it, conscription from the general civilian population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head to the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" come from.

Before that, as I understand it, all Reich German Waffen-SS men were either already government employees or volunteers from the general population.

As far as I can tell from what Brill says, almost all the men he mentions as drafted were transferred from government services, usually already run by Himmler, and not raised by conscription from the general population.

I was not talking about non-Reich Germans. Volunteerism was so disappointing among them that in 1942 Volksdeutsch from the Banat had to be conscripted and in early 1943 agreements had to be reached with Romania, Slovakia, Hungary and Croatia to introduce conscription for their Volksdeutsch into the Waffen-SS. Similarly, the Latvians and Estonians underwent conscription in 1943-44. However, in the context of my discussion with Sarge, the post-war German state had no obligations towards these foreign nationals.

As far as I can see, nothing Brill says contradicts what I originally wrote, but it certainly usefully amplifies it.

Thanks,

Sid.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#953

Post by dshaday » 21 Feb 2015, 15:01

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: As I understand it, conscription from the general civilian population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head to the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" come from.
Brill is saying that this is not true. Conscription into the Waffen SS occurred much earlier. The general civilian population includes government employees and civilian staff employed by the SS.

In any case, your original comment referred to "Germans" being conscripted into the Waffen SS in only the last 9 months of the war.

Sid Guttridge wrote: As far as I can see, nothing Brill says contradicts what I originally wrote, but it certainly usefully amplifies it.
Maybe you should read again the bits about doctors and technician being drafted. Also, the regular forced transfer from the army of cavalry personnel (800 Army cavalry personnel in 1941) and the unknown number of ethnic German re-settlers who accrued military service obligations (because they were re-settled in the Reich and were now German citizens). Postal staff etc are members of the civilian population too.

What Brill said does not amplify what you originally wrote. What Brill says contradicts it.

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#954

Post by Sid Guttridge » 21 Feb 2015, 15:23

Hi Dennis,

I originally wrote, "I can understand the resentment of those Germans conscripted into the W-SS late in the war, if they did not get the same benefits as other conscripts, but they can only have had 9 months service, at most. However, the volunteers and regulars have little to complain about as they chose between Army and W-SS service."

Read what I wrote carefully and you will see that Brill contradicts none of that. What he does do is amplify it by entering areas I did not mention, or, in some cases, even know about.

Your introduction of Brill has been useful because it goes beyond what I wrote, but it does not contradict it. For that, thank you.

Cheers,

Sid.

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BillHermann
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#955

Post by BillHermann » 21 Feb 2015, 17:16

Often veterans from all conflicts and countries have felt left out and many often are treated without the enough compensation and care. Currently there are many modern examples.

But why is there such a need to try and specifically make the Waffen-SS as a whole needy when there are more than enough examples of former Waffen-SS men doing very well post war.

It' seems that this is wasted energy focusing on superficial assumptions on needs and aspects of the Waffen-SS members.
Last edited by BillHermann on 22 Feb 2015, 09:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#956

Post by dshaday » 21 Feb 2015, 18:15

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: Read what I wrote carefully and you will see that Brill contradicts none of that. What he does do is amplify it by entering areas I did not mention, or, in some cases, even know about.
I did read your comments carefully, and have shown that you are mistaken. Conscription of Germans began well before July 1944.
I am satisfied that I have made my point, and that readers will be the judge.

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#957

Post by Pena V » 22 Feb 2015, 04:08

Hi Rob,
Rob - wssob2 wrote:Pena: the theoretical officer training was roughly the same.

Rob: Actually, no. I’d posit the Army had the more advanced, sophisticated officer training. Waffen-SS senior officers had to take Army courses (for example the Division Commanders Training Course) to learn the required skills for leading large units.
When you read the above you just confirm what I said by saying that Waffen-SS senior officers had to take (more advanced, sophisticated) Army courses to learn the required skills.
Rob - wssob2 wrote:Pena: Maybe the biggest difference was that the SS officers were true believers of the course and thus "tried harder”.

Rob: In other words, ideological affinity to Nazi worldview.
Exactly.
Rob - wssob2 wrote:Oh please. There are plenty of instances of Waffen-SS troops performing poorly.
Please take into account that the issue which I was commenting was:
"Why would the German Army consider the 1-3 SS-Divisions there elite?"
and the limitations were:
1. "If we limit the question to these 3 Divisions only and the timeline is"
2. "When neither had proven them selves in battle."
So the question here is are you referring to something which happened ""When neither had proven them selves in battle."

The SS required a signed agreement for years of service concerning their volunteers.
Rob - wssob2 wrote:Ahhh… the Wehrmacht also required a sign agreement. (Conscription, anyone?)
The difference was that men who signed the SS-agreement singed it because they wanted to sign. Not because they had to. On the other hand men who were conscripted had to go to the army. Some were happy to go, some not so happy. If you are motivated you are usually good in what you do


The Army used conscripts.
Rob - wssob2 wrote:As did the Waffen-SS, even back in 1940 when it forced General-SS men into the Totenkopfverbande.
.
So the question here is are you referring to the Totenkopf Division because "If we limit the question to these 3 Divisions only...

"
Rob - wssob2 wrote:Pena: Now the question is: If you were a commander and could freely choose would you like to command volunteers who wanted to be professionals or conscripts? Which one is elite?

Rob: I’d take the 7th Panzer Division in 1940.
A good choice! Buy it doesn't mean that the 1-3 SS-Divisions couldn't be elite.

Regards,

Pena V

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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#958

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Feb 2015, 13:22

Hi jkeenan,

If you want to accuse me of making things up, rather than simply being wrong, you must substantiate it.

No, I don't "hate the SS/Waffen-SS". I simply want it to be put in its proper historical perspective and for the romanticization and exaggeration to be put to the test. The ahistorical boosting of the Waffen-SS today is being bought at the expense of the reputation of the far more important German Army.

I do apologise for writing that "Until early 1939 all SS men were legally expected to do their military service in the Army, like everyone else" when, as you say, the real date was August 1938. However, I would point out that these six months make absolutely no difference to my point, which is that all W-SS Reich manpower was subtracted from the manpower available to the Wehrmacht and was not an addition to it.

You write, "In 1943 they had little choice, they went where they were told." No. The mass conscription of civilian Reich Germans into the W-SS began only after the Bomb Plot in July 1944, when Himmler was made head of the Army's Replacement Army and got his hands on most of Germany's manpower reserves. I agree that the recruiting of young Germans of pre-conscription age into the Waffen-SS in 1943 was sometimes contrived by means of appealing to immature, impressionable minds and by the judicious use of peer group pressure, but even then most under age volunteers still opted for the Army.

You write, somewhat hysterically, "There was also a Germanic Volunteer Office set up after the conquest of Europe in 1940 for all volunteers who queued the length and breadth of their respective countries to join the ELITE of the ELITE!!"

Firstly, if they wanted to join the "ELITE of the ELITE" in 1940, they wouldn't have been standing outside W-SS recruitment offices.

Secondly, taking just the most Germanic of other peoples, Norwegians and Danes, an average of just four men from each country entered the W-SS per day during the war years. Far from them queueing "the length and breadth of their respective countries", it looks as though the recruitment offices were usually uneerily quiet!

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 22 Feb 2015, 14:40, edited 2 times in total.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#959

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Feb 2015, 13:32

Hi Dennis,

Indeed, you have made your point. It simply did not address what I had written.

You mentioned Brill and raised a category of W-SS men I had not addressed (transferees from other government services). This was a useful contribution on your part. It would be interesting to know if, post war, they got benefits for their service in their original government departments, but not for their service in the W-SS. Any idea?

Cheers,

Sid.
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 22 Feb 2015, 14:18, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#960

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Feb 2015, 13:42

Hi Pena V.,

It is a fair point that, if one is self motivated, one is likely to be better at whatever one sets one's hand to.

The problem with the senior W-SS divisions is that, even with a high proportion of volunteer manpower, it is difficult to demonstrate that they performed better than their less favoured Army equivalents, which were largely conscript.

Besides, there is also the point that the same self-motivated men were hardly likely to be less enthusiastic if they had entered the Army. If they were patriotic and self motivated W-SS men, they are hardly likely to have been indolent laggards in the Army!

The real problem with the W-SS is to demonstrate any "value added" by its creation as an independent arm of service. It was militarily unoriginal and almost all its Reich-raised human and materiel resources were acquired from what would otherwise be the Army's resources.

Cheers,

Sid.

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