Why the Waffen-SS

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dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#961

Post by dshaday » 22 Feb 2015, 17:31

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:Indeed, you have made your point. It simply did not address what I had written.
I will try one last time to show that you are mistaken. You wrote that conscription of Reich German into the Waffen SS began after July 1944.This is plainly incorrect.

See: George H Stein, “The Waffen SS: Hitler's Elite Guard at War, 1939-1945”. p171.
He states that by 1943 native Germans were being conscripted into the Waffen SS. (This is a conservative date in my opinion. I believe it really began earlier)

Have a look at the the histories of the Frundsberg and Hohenstaufen Divisions for example. They were formed in early 1943 from Reich German conscripts.

Brill's testimony refers to men from Totenkopf Standarten, government services (postal service, police service), civilian employees of the SS, technical/medical specialists and army personnel being forcibly drafted into the Waffen SS, prior to 1943. All these are Reich Germans who did not volunteer for the Waffen SS.

Regards

Dennis

Rob - wssob2
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#962

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 22 Feb 2015, 21:14

Although I am perhaps foolish to insert myself between the Dennis/Sid military/marital spat, I did want to clarify

1) Yes, Hitler technically introduced conscription in 1935

2) During the 1930's and into the early war years, a German youth could ask your local draft board to be assigned to a specific branch of service. So yes you were conscripted but you "volunteered" for the Luftwaffe or Waffen-SS or whatever. The request from recruit/volunteer/conscript was subject to the percentages for each miilitary formation set by Hitler.

3) The deteriorating military situation in 1944 brought about subsequent changes in how the Third Reich raised troops. Himmler took over the Replacement Army, and conscripts no longer had a choice - they are just seen to the Army or the SS. Servicemen from the Luftwaffe and Navy are transferred into the Army or Waffen-SS - and they too did not have a choice. In Oct 1944 Hitler sets up the Volksstrum, in which every German able-bodied male has to serve as a militiaman.

A good book that covers the various methods the Third Reich used to raise troops in the late war period is Scraping the Barrel: The Military Use of Sub-Standard Manpower

Yes Himmler in 1940 did use conscription to force General-SS men to join the SS Death's Head unit's, but it affected a small segement of German men.

I think the point that Sid is trying to make is the Reich's acute manpower needs of 1944 affected the entire German male population.


Pena V
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#963

Post by Pena V » 23 Feb 2015, 03:26

Sid,

At first I thought that I'd more or less agree with you on all points. Then I had an interesting idea concerning this:
Sid Guttridge wrote:Besides, there is also the point that the same self-motivated men were hardly likely to be less enthusiastic if they had entered the Army. If they were patriotic and self motivated W-SS men, they are hardly likely to have been indolent laggards in the Army!
1+1 does not necessarily make 2. It could be 2,5. There must be a study somewhere comparing able men training with other able men and on the other hand able men training with not so able men. Are the results better if the "competition" is harder compared to a situation where you easily beat your "competititors"? I admit that this is not an important question and I do not know the answer but this poppep to my mind while reading your comments.

Regards,

Pena V

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#964

Post by dshaday » 23 Feb 2015, 08:34

Hi Rob
Rob - wssob2 wrote: I think the point that Sid is trying to make is the Reich's acute manpower needs of 1944 affected the entire German male population.
I disagree. Sid has clearly made the point that conscription of Reich German men into the Waffen SS only occurred after July 1944, due to Himmler becoming in charge of the home army. That conscription happened for a maximum of 9 months. It is a specific point, and not some general manpower comment. Sid's comment is incorrect. My posts have shown this.
Rob - wssob2 wrote: Although I am perhaps foolish to insert myself between the Dennis/Sid military/marital spat, ...
As regards the highlighted word. This is a serious research forum, and not a "Dear Abby" or gossip column.
Correcting factual errors by posters is a part of the forum's purpose.

Posting accurate information is never foolish. Your post (together with Brill's testimony) shows that the conscription issue for Reich Germans and the Waffen SS is somewhat involved.

I have already read the book you referenced to, and it is a worthwhile read. It has some interesting information on Army and SS units. The book even says that the Waffen SS began conscripting Reich Germans in 1942.

Regards

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#965

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Feb 2015, 17:01

Hi Dennis,

You say of me "You wrote that conscription of Reich Germans into the Waffen-SS began after July 1944"

Well, actually, no I didn't.

What I actually originally wrote was "I can understand the resentment of those Germans conscripted into the Waffen-SS late in the war, if they did not get the same benefits as other conscripts, but they can only have had 9 months service, at most. However, the volunteers and regulars have little to complain about as they chose between Army and W-SS service."

I later clarified this for you by writing, "As I understand it, conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head of the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" came from."

You usefully added that some Germans were transferred to the Waffen-SS from other government service earlier in the war. This was true and was a useful contribution of additional information.

For which, again, thank you.

Cheers,

Sid

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#966

Post by dshaday » 23 Feb 2015, 17:23

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: I later clarified this for you by writing, "As I understand it, conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head of the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" came from".
I have shown you (by using several sources) that your understanding as quoted above is incorrect. Conscription to the Waffen SS from the general civil population of Germany did not begin in July 1944.


Regards

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#967

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Feb 2015, 20:19

Hi Dennis,

As existing government employees, most notably police, are hardly "the general civil population of Germany", what exactly are you referring to?

When was it that any and every German civilian (i.e. "the general German civil population") might find himself conscripted into the Waffen-SS?

My understanding is that it came following Himmler taking control of the Ersatzheer after the July 1944 Bomb Plot.

If you have any information to the contrary, please put it up. (And, NO, you haven't yet done so.)

I am always willing to accept correction when it is justified, all I ask is that you provide the necessary hard facts and I will happily concede in the interest of the true historical record.

Cheers,

Sid.

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#968

Post by dshaday » 24 Feb 2015, 07:07

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: As existing government employees, most notably police, are hardly "the general civil population of Germany", what exactly are you referring to?
The policeman and mailman are indeed members of the general civil population of Germany. As are the civilian employees mentioned in Brill's testimony, and the German Doctors/technical specialists mentioned by him as being drafted into the Waffen SS.
Sid Guttridge wrote:When was it that any and every German civilian (i.e. "the general German civil population") might find himself conscripted into the Waffen-SS?

My understanding is that it came following Himmler taking control of the Ersatzheer after the July 1944 Bomb Plot.
Your understanding is mistaken. This type of conscription occurred prior to 1944.

Also, you have not provided any sources to back this speculation in cause (Himmler taking control of the Ersatzheer ) and effect (conscription of the general German civil population into Waffen SS begins). I would love to see such, but am not holding my breath.

Also funny that you (just now) artificially narrow the meaning of the phrase "general German civil population".

In any case, I have:
given 2 x book references that state German citizens were conscripted into the Waffen SS prior to 1944.
given you testimony from an SS specialist.
given you the examples of two Waffen SS divisions set up in 1943 from German conscripts specifically from the general civil population. (I hope you have bothered to check these units out).
Sid Guttridge wrote: If you have any information to the contrary, please put it up. (And, NO, you haven't yet done so.)
I have already successfully done so. I cannot help you any further.

Regards

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#969

Post by Sid Guttridge » 24 Feb 2015, 13:19

Hi Dennis,

I don't know where you are writing from but, especially if it is from the Anglo-Saxon world, to characterize Germany's interwar police force as "members of the general civil population" is, to put it kindly, a gross oversimplification.

Some parts, such as the Landespolizei, were overtly militarized and transferred en masse into the army in the 1930s. (In Danzig they formed the core of the Free State's military forces in 1939 and became 60th Motorized Infantry Division - the last active division formed). The police generally had been used while the Versailles Treaty was in force to find a legitimate, though under the radar, home for trained soldiers. When the Nazis came to power they consolidated the police forces nationally under Himmler and the divisions between them and the SS were increasingly eroded. The Ordnungspolizei advanced immediately behind the Army to control the civilian population of conquered areas of Poland. The transfer to the W-SS of these uniformed state security employees was nothing like the conscription from the general German civilian population into the Waffen-SS which occurred after July 1944.

If my understanding is mistaken that the General German civilian population was not subject to conscription into the Waffen-SS after July 1944, you must explain why the Waffen-SS was subject to a quota limit of Reich German manpower prior to that? You must also put a date on when your version of conscription from the general civil population began (and not just of a few postmen and doctors).

I am surprised you want a source for Himmler being made head of the Ersatzheer after the July Bomb Plot. This is so widely known, and available in any potted history of the man, that it is probably superfluous to provide any links, but I will humour you and do so when I return.

If you wish to make the accusation "Also funny that you (just now) artificially narrow the meaning of the phrase "general German civil population", you are obliged to explain yourself. I am using it to embrace the entire adult male population. You seem to think it consists of a small number of already uniformed state employees, most of whom were in the state security apparatus.

I have no problem if some German civilians were conscripted into the Waffen-SS prior to July 1944. That is a straw man set up by you and one I do not have to disagree with. I was talking about the general availability of German manpower to the Waffen-SS following Himmler taking over the Ersatzheer. Again, I would urge you to actually read what I originally wrote rather than tilting at windmills.

You write "....am not holding my breath." You disappoint me on so many levels.....

Cheers,

Sid (with tongue planted firmly in cheek).

P.S. Don't feel obliged to rush to reply, I haven't quite finished yet as you asked for a few sources.

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#970

Post by dshaday » 24 Feb 2015, 14:38

Hi Rob
Rob - wssob2 wrote: 2) During the 1930's and into the early war years, a German youth could ask your local draft board to be assigned to a specific branch of service. So yes you were conscripted but you "volunteered" for the Luftwaffe or Waffen-SS or whatever. The request from recruit/volunteer/conscript was subject to the percentages for each miilitary formation set by Hitler.
In another thread you posted that "Hitler set percentages for recruiting quotas for each branch of the armed services and the SS".
This quota must have covered voluntary and involuntary Waffen SS recruits.

This logically means that the Waffen SS was a part of the national Wehrmacht conscription scheme. This helps explain a Waffen SS soldier interview that I have just read. In 1944 this man reported for military service and nominated the Kriegsmarine for his service branch. He had been "courted" by the Kriegsmarine recruiters and chose them. Next thing he knew he was called up for the Waffen SS in June 1944 and slotted for officer training - since he had a good education background.

Regards

Dennis

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#971

Post by dshaday » 24 Feb 2015, 15:53

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: I don't know where you are writing from but, especially if it is from the Anglo-Saxon world, to characterize Germany's interwar police force as "members of the general civil population" is, to put it kindly, a gross oversimplification.

Some parts, such ...
In your last post you defined the general civil population to "embrace the entire adult male population" the police are obviously included in your definition. So why the long contradiction?
Sid Guttridge wrote: If my understanding is mistaken that the General German civilian population was not subject to conscription into the Waffen-SS after July 1944, you must explain why the Waffen-SS was subject to a quota limit of Reich German manpower prior to that? You must also put a date on when your version of conscription from the general civil population began (and not just of a few postmen and doctors).
I have several times said that the conscription we are discussing occurred prior to July 1944. Please show/quote me where I have said the conscription did not occur after July 1944? You were the one who claimed that it only occurred after July 1944.

The 9 month figure you have claimed is therefore incorrect. Himmler's post July 1944 elevation did not signal the start of the conscription .

I have provided sources from two historian who recognise 1942/43 as the start date (this is likely the start of the significant conscription). The testimony by Brill puts the date for conscription beginning (in presumably some form) from at least 1940 onwards (citing conscription of postmen, policemen, civil employees, technicians, doctors).
Sid Guttridge wrote: I am surprised you want a source for Himmler being made head of the Ersatzheer after the July Bomb Plot. This is so widely known, and available in any potted history of the man, that it is probably superfluous to provide any links, but I will humour you and do so when I return.
This is of course not what I asked you for, so please save us all the trouble.
I asked for "sources" to back your speculation in the cause (Himmler taking control of the Ersatzheer ) having you claimed effect (allowing conscription of the general German civil population into Waffen SS to begin). That is, how did Himmler's taking control of the Ersatzheer cause conscription of the general German civil population into the Waffen SS to begin. Since you specified that this conscription was not operating before then, but for only a maximum of 9 months before the war ended.
Perhaps this is clearer? I obviously have no issue with Himmler's taking control of the Ersatzheer.

Judging by the change in tone of your last E-mail, if you:
1/ no longer believe that conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen SS began in July 1944, and
2/ that these conscripts were not limited to a maximum of 9 months service
then my request for sources is no longer relevant.

I also agree with your definition of the phrase "general German civil population" to "embrace the entire adult male population". This can therefore include the postmen, students, RAD members, police, doctors technicians etc. It can include conscription targeted at some of these groups, or all of them.
Sid Guttridge wrote: I have no problem if some German civilians were conscripted into the Waffen-SS prior to July 1944.
You are now changing your story. Since previously you wrote:
"As I understand it, conscription from the general civil population of Germany to the Waffen-SS began when Himmler was appointed head of the Ersatzheer (Replacement Army) after the Bomb Plot in July 1944. That is where my "9 months" came from."
At least your new statements are more accurate, and complies with what Rob suggested you should have said.
Sid Guttridge wrote: I was talking about the general availability of German manpower to the Waffen-SS following Himmler taking over the Ersatzheer.
Then you are retracting your claim that Waffen SS conscripts had a maximum of 9 months war service. Good.


Regards

Dennis
Last edited by dshaday on 24 Feb 2015, 18:04, edited 1 time in total.

dshaday
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#972

Post by dshaday » 24 Feb 2015, 16:20

Hi Sid

I forgot to mention that if you accept what the IMT concluded, then "“Until 1940 the SS was an entirely voluntary organisation. After the formation of the Waffen SS in 1940 there was a gradually increasing number of conscripts into the Waffen SS. ..."

So no conscription before1940, in their opinion.

Dennis

j keenan
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#973

Post by j keenan » 24 Feb 2015, 20:32

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi jkeenan,

If you want to accuse me of making things up, rather than simply being wrong, you must substantiate it.

No, I don't "hate the SS/Waffen-SS". I simply want it to be put in its proper historical perspective and for the romanticization and exaggeration to be put to the test. The ahistorical boosting of the Waffen-SS today is being bought at the expense of the reputation of the far more important German Army.

I do apologise for writing that "Until early 1939 all SS men were legally expected to do their military service in the Army, like everyone else" when, as you say, the real date was August 1938. However, I would point out that these six months make absolutely no difference to my point, which is that all W-SS Reich manpower was subtracted from the manpower available to the Wehrmacht and was not an addition to it.

You write, "In 1943 they had little choice, they went where they were told." No. The mass conscription of civilian Reich Germans into the W-SS began only after the Bomb Plot in July 1944, when Himmler was made head of the Army's Replacement Army and got his hands on most of Germany's manpower reserves. I agree that the recruiting of young Germans of pre-conscription age into the Waffen-SS in 1943 was sometimes contrived by means of appealing to immature, impressionable minds and by the judicious use of peer group pressure, but even then most under age volunteers still opted for the Army.

You write, somewhat hysterically, "There was also a Germanic Volunteer Office set up after the conquest of Europe in 1940 for all volunteers who queued the length and breadth of their respective countries to join the ELITE of the ELITE!!"

Firstly, if they wanted to join the "ELITE of the ELITE" in 1940, they wouldn't have been standing outside W-SS recruitment offices.

Secondly, taking just the most Germanic of other peoples, Norwegians and Danes, an average of just four men from each country entered the W-SS per day during the war years. Far from them queueing "the length and breadth of their respective countries", it looks as though the recruitment offices were usually uneerily quiet!

Cheers,

Sid.
Hi Sid,
If you knew the correct date you should use it,
The Elite of the Elite was done in a sarcastic tone I was taking the michael out off the FAN BOYS who try to prove that the 1-3 Divis are elite.They were political elite but not military,in any way shape or form,The SS-VT were set up to put down social disorder or a coup attempt with in the Third Reichs own borders pre war.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#974

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Feb 2015, 12:40

Hi jkeenan,

Indeed, if one knows the correct date, one should use it.

I was looking at an old Feldgrau post of mine yesterday and I got the year (1938) right then.

Luckily, this particular error of mine here made no substantive difference to the point I was making.

Thank you for the correction.

Cheers,

Sid.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#975

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Feb 2015, 12:59

Hi Dennis,

To start dealing with your posts......

The Waffen-SS had a quota of each annual class that it could recruit, which I think was set at 2% in 1940 and grew slightly in succeeding years. It was this limitation that particularly motivated the search for manpower from outside the Reich.

It could achieve this quota by entering schools and enlisting recruits in the year before they were due to be compulsorily conscripted. The 12th SS division was the prime exemplar of the result. However, it did not have access to conscripts from the general population until after Himmler became head to the Ersatzheer after July 1944. (Of which more later). That was why tens of thousands of young Germans, such as Gunter Grass, involuntarily found themselves in the Waffen-SS in the last 9 months of the war. It also partly explains why your earlier source opined that there were probably more conscripts than volunteers in the W-SS by the end of the war.

If you would care to go back and actually read what I originally wrote about, you will see that I was referring specifically to those conscripted in the last 9 months of the war: "I can understand the resentment of those Germans conscripted into the W-SS late in the war, if they did not get the same benefits as other conscripts, but they can only have had 9 months service, at most. However, the volunteers and regulars have little to complain about as they chose between Army and W-SS service."

I see no reason to alter any of that. And neither, in fact, can you.

More later.

Cheers,

Sid.

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