Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
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Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
I see from a return for 1st June 1944 that the Division "HJ" had 31 7,5 cm Pak 40 on strength and that this was 129% of its allowed holding of that gun. Can anyone tell me which units within the Division had these Pak 40 ?
Alan
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Candidate units within a Panzer-Div. would be;
Div Escort Coy (if present); 3 guns
Recce Bn; 3 guns
Atk Bn; 12 towed guns
Armd PzGren Regt; 12 guns (based on three Bns)
Mot Pz Gren Regt; 12 guns (based on three Bns)
So a rough total of 42 guns on the 1943 KStNs. The 1944 'fG' tables removed the towed atk guns from all but the Atk Bn and (I think) the Escort Coy. Zetterling gives 12 guns per PzGren Regt still in May/June 1944 though -
http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/gerob/gerob.html
I think there's a Gliederung on Sturmpanzer for the SS Divs in May 1944, which should give an indication of what KStNs they were on, as it took a while for the 'fG' model to come in, and even then it seems there were dispensations.
Gary
Div Escort Coy (if present); 3 guns
Recce Bn; 3 guns
Atk Bn; 12 towed guns
Armd PzGren Regt; 12 guns (based on three Bns)
Mot Pz Gren Regt; 12 guns (based on three Bns)
So a rough total of 42 guns on the 1943 KStNs. The 1944 'fG' tables removed the towed atk guns from all but the Atk Bn and (I think) the Escort Coy. Zetterling gives 12 guns per PzGren Regt still in May/June 1944 though -
http://home.swipnet.se/normandy/gerob/gerob.html
I think there's a Gliederung on Sturmpanzer for the SS Divs in May 1944, which should give an indication of what KStNs they were on, as it took a while for the 'fG' model to come in, and even then it seems there were dispensations.
Gary
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Thanks Gary, I believe the fg came in into force in May 44 and judging by the 31 guns held being 129% of "soll" then they should only have had 24.
I'm put off Zetterling's figures because he also has the two regiments having 6 Grille each and we know, thanks to Martin Block, that they didn't have their first SP 150's issued until July 44.
I'm put off Zetterling's figures because he also has the two regiments having 6 Grille each and we know, thanks to Martin Block, that they didn't have their first SP 150's issued until July 44.
Alan
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Hi Alan,
Have you seen this site? Click on the organisation link it's very useful, for instance I didn't know one of the companys was using soviet field guns instead of 7.5cm IGs
http://members.home.nl/gunslinger/12sshj/
Have you seen this site? Click on the organisation link it's very useful, for instance I didn't know one of the companys was using soviet field guns instead of 7.5cm IGs
http://members.home.nl/gunslinger/12sshj/
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Wood and Dougdale show them as having 28 'Heavy AT guns' ready for action on June 1st.
1 in Divisional HQ.
24 in the 2 Pz Gr Regiments and 3 in the recce Abt.
1 in Divisional HQ.
24 in the 2 Pz Gr Regiments and 3 in the recce Abt.
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
rossmcpharter wrote:Hi Alan,
Have you seen this site? Click on the organisation link it's very useful, for instance I didn't know one of the companys was using soviet field guns instead of 7.5cm IGs
http://members.home.nl/gunslinger/12sshj/
Thanks very much for that, I'd not seen that site before, very helpful. I knew that the division had some Soviet 76.2mm Infantry Guns but didn't know that they were in the II./26.
Last edited by Alanmccoubrey on 18 Apr 2014, 19:45, edited 1 time in total.
Alan
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Michael Kenny wrote:Wood and Dougdale show them as having 28 'Heavy AT guns' ready for action on June 1st.
1 in Divisional HQ.
24 in the 2 Pz Gr Regiments and 3 in the recce Abt.
Thanks Michael.
Alan
Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Hi,
The numbers from Wood and Dugdale (Ist = 28 where Soll = 24) correspond with a Zustandsbericht that can be found in NARA R-78 Roll 719.
I think a Gr.Rgt. should only have 9, the divisional escort company should have 3 and the Recce Abt should have 3.
It means both Gren Rgts have 3 guns too much and the Div. Escort company 2 short.
Best wishes Bram
The numbers from Wood and Dugdale (Ist = 28 where Soll = 24) correspond with a Zustandsbericht that can be found in NARA R-78 Roll 719.
I think a Gr.Rgt. should only have 9, the divisional escort company should have 3 and the Recce Abt should have 3.
It means both Gren Rgts have 3 guns too much and the Div. Escort company 2 short.
Best wishes Bram
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
My interest was piqued so I had a look at the Gliederung on Sturmpanzer. It does show the Div on the older 1943 KStNs as of May44, which did include a 3-gun Atk Pl in each PzGren Bn, and also in the Regtl Staff Coy. So for a Regt with three Bns a total of 12 towed 7,5-cm guns was correct. Likewise a 3-gun Atk Pl was authorised in both the Div Escort Coy and the Recce Bn. The May44 Gliederung though shows the Atk Bn as being fully SP, so that would give the Div 30 guns. Two other units were authorised towed atk guns, one for the Field Replacement Bn, and one medium (5-cm) weapon for each Bty in the Nebelwerfer Bn.
Oddly enough 12 per PzGren Regt, 3 Recce Bn, 3 Escort Coy and 1 Replacement Bn does give you 31, but that might be simple coincidence.
I had a look in Nevenkin's 'Fire Brigades' and he shows the Atk Bn reorganized into HQ, two SP Coys, one Mot Coy and one Supply Coy as early as Apr44. The PzGren Bns he shows as getting their Supply Coys in June 1944 (indicating the move to the fG org), and the Recce Bn adopting the fG format at the same time. These units could though have easily retained their Pak40s for a while longer.
Gary
Oddly enough 12 per PzGren Regt, 3 Recce Bn, 3 Escort Coy and 1 Replacement Bn does give you 31, but that might be simple coincidence.
I had a look in Nevenkin's 'Fire Brigades' and he shows the Atk Bn reorganized into HQ, two SP Coys, one Mot Coy and one Supply Coy as early as Apr44. The PzGren Bns he shows as getting their Supply Coys in June 1944 (indicating the move to the fG org), and the Recce Bn adopting the fG format at the same time. These units could though have easily retained their Pak40s for a while longer.
Gary
Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
It’s really intriguing. The Soll of 31 (KAN) is a number I also found in the Meldung of the 10.SS-Pz.Div. Frundsberg. However also a Soll of 24 is mentioned. Between brackets after the number 24 is stated SS-FHA. So there is a difference between the Soll of a regular Panzerdivision and an SS Panzerdivision.
Bram
Bram
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Re: Division "HJ": Pak 40's in Normandy
Thanks Bram and Gary. I wonder if any of the 31 listed on the return that started all this were on the two Marder III's that the division had (but shouldn't have had) and which were in the recce bn and which aren't themselves on that return ?
Any Pak 38's held wouldn't have been on this return because the Nebelwerfer Abt was still back in Belgium waiting for towing vehicles.
Any Pak 38's held wouldn't have been on this return because the Nebelwerfer Abt was still back in Belgium waiting for towing vehicles.
Alan