Need information on company OOB and designation
Need information on company OOB and designation
I'm working on a modelling project where I want to build on an actual company out of history. I'll try to mark and designate each individual platoon as correctly as possible.
I need help with a couple of things. I've been searching the www a lot, but cant seem to find any company level OOB's, even better would of course be a tree from division level downwards through regiment, batallion and company with the military designation (name/callsign whatever) for each. Optimally, I'd like to find a company that served on both the east and west fronts sometime during 43-44.
Any help with finding the above information would be greatly appreciated!
Also, if I manage to find the information, how should I present it on the platoon and squad markers? Information on German designation practice would be very helpful.
Thank you in advance for any help!
I need help with a couple of things. I've been searching the www a lot, but cant seem to find any company level OOB's, even better would of course be a tree from division level downwards through regiment, batallion and company with the military designation (name/callsign whatever) for each. Optimally, I'd like to find a company that served on both the east and west fronts sometime during 43-44.
Any help with finding the above information would be greatly appreciated!
Also, if I manage to find the information, how should I present it on the platoon and squad markers? Information on German designation practice would be very helpful.
Thank you in advance for any help!
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Thank you NagaSadow. I've been looking around a lot with that site as a base, but I've yet to find any detailed company level descriptions. So far I've gathered that the company commander is a hauptmann, and his second in command a lieutnant. Each of the native platoons in the company is designated "zug", and always 1, 2, 3 etc.
I'm still looking for how to designate the company, any batallion and divisional attached assets and so on. Any help is much appreciated!
I'm still looking for how to designate the company, any batallion and divisional attached assets and so on. Any help is much appreciated!
- Christoph Awender
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Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Hello,
The lowest organisational Level is the "Gruppe" which is designated with arabic numbers 1.Gruppe, 2.Gruppe etc...
the next is the "Zug" (platoon) formally correct with roman numbers but from the beginning of the war mostly designated with arabic numbers 1.Zug, 2.Zug etc..
Then you have the "Kompanie" with roman numbers - 1.Kompanie, 2.Kompanie etc..
Then the Bataillon with roman numbers - I.Bataillon, II.Bataillon...
Then the Regiment with roman numbers ... Infanterieregiment 26, Infanterieregiment 109 etc...
How many Gruppen were in a Zug, Züge in a Kompanie and Kompanien in a Bataillon changed from KStN to KStN and from timeframe to timeframe etc..
A typical example for a early war Regiment was
3 Gruppen in a Zug
3 Züge in a Kompanie
1.-3.Schützenkompanie and 4.(M.G.)Kompanie in the I.Bataillon
5.-7.Schützenkompanie and 8.(M.G.)Kompanie in the II.Bataillon
9.-11.Schützenkompanie and 12.(M.G.) Kompanie in the III.Bataillon
13.(Inf.Gesch.) Kompanie, 14.(Pz.Jg.) Kompanie as regimental companies and a leichte Infanteriekolonne as supply asset.
hope this helps,
Christoph
PS: So possible designations were e.g.:
1.Kp./Inf.Rgt.26 (often the battalion was not written as it was clear that the 1st Company was in the I.Btl.)
6.Kp./II.Btl./Inf.Rgt.26
The lowest organisational Level is the "Gruppe" which is designated with arabic numbers 1.Gruppe, 2.Gruppe etc...
the next is the "Zug" (platoon) formally correct with roman numbers but from the beginning of the war mostly designated with arabic numbers 1.Zug, 2.Zug etc..
Then you have the "Kompanie" with roman numbers - 1.Kompanie, 2.Kompanie etc..
Then the Bataillon with roman numbers - I.Bataillon, II.Bataillon...
Then the Regiment with roman numbers ... Infanterieregiment 26, Infanterieregiment 109 etc...
How many Gruppen were in a Zug, Züge in a Kompanie and Kompanien in a Bataillon changed from KStN to KStN and from timeframe to timeframe etc..
A typical example for a early war Regiment was
3 Gruppen in a Zug
3 Züge in a Kompanie
1.-3.Schützenkompanie and 4.(M.G.)Kompanie in the I.Bataillon
5.-7.Schützenkompanie and 8.(M.G.)Kompanie in the II.Bataillon
9.-11.Schützenkompanie and 12.(M.G.) Kompanie in the III.Bataillon
13.(Inf.Gesch.) Kompanie, 14.(Pz.Jg.) Kompanie as regimental companies and a leichte Infanteriekolonne as supply asset.
hope this helps,
Christoph
PS: So possible designations were e.g.:
1.Kp./Inf.Rgt.26 (often the battalion was not written as it was clear that the 1st Company was in the I.Btl.)
6.Kp./II.Btl./Inf.Rgt.26
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Thank you for this information. I've been going through the various suggested pages with a fine tooth comb, and I'm sad to say I've yet to find a suitable Batallion or company having fought both in the east and west from 43 onwards. I'm looking for an actual Batallion or preferably Company with OOB, perhaps one can be found for some specific engagement that I havent found?Christoph Awender wrote:Hello,
The lowest organisational Level is the "Gruppe" which is designated with arabic numbers 1.Gruppe, 2.Gruppe etc...
the next is the "Zug" (platoon) formally correct with roman numbers but from the beginning of the war mostly designated with arabic numbers 1.Zug, 2.Zug etc..
Then you have the "Kompanie" with roman numbers - 1.Kompanie, 2.Kompanie etc..
Then the Bataillon with roman numbers - I.Bataillon, II.Bataillon...
Then the Regiment with roman numbers ... Infanterieregiment 26, Infanterieregiment 109 etc...
How many Gruppen were in a Zug, Züge in a Kompanie and Kompanien in a Bataillon changed from KStN to KStN and from timeframe to timeframe etc..
A typical example for a early war Regiment was
3 Gruppen in a Zug
3 Züge in a Kompanie
1.-3.Schützenkompanie and 4.(M.G.)Kompanie in the I.Bataillon
5.-7.Schützenkompanie and 8.(M.G.)Kompanie in the II.Bataillon
9.-11.Schützenkompanie and 12.(M.G.) Kompanie in the III.Bataillon
13.(Inf.Gesch.) Kompanie, 14.(Pz.Jg.) Kompanie as regimental companies and a leichte Infanteriekolonne as supply asset.
hope this helps,
Christoph
PS: So possible designations were e.g.:
1.Kp./Inf.Rgt.26 (often the battalion was not written as it was clear that the 1st Company was in the I.Btl.)
6.Kp./II.Btl./Inf.Rgt.26
Anyway. As far as I understand the very basic "core" of the company would be designated something like this;
A general question, should the designation be separated by comma or divide (/)? Also, should the numerical (Roman or otherwise) be written together with the name, or with a space between? (6.schutzenkompanie or 6. Schutzencompanie)?
Example Company - "6. Schutzenkompanie/ II. Bat/ inf.rgt.223"
Company Command - "Stabskompanie"
CiC - Hauptmann
2iC - Kompanieführer
1st Platoon - "I. Zug, 6. Schutzen" (Is the abbreviation to "schutzen" only correct?")
I. Zug Stabsgruppe, Oberstleutnant or Leutnant
1. Schutzengruppe, I. Zug
2. Schutzengruppe, I. Zug
2. SchutzenGruppe, I. Zug
Same for II and III zug. Now, question is, does the Kompanie pattern repeat? I.e. since its 6. schuzenkompanie, is it also supposed to be V-VII zug? And within the "Zugen", 1-9 gruppe across the three Platoons?
I'm also having some trouble with how to designate batallion and divisional assets attached to the company for a specific battle, any ideas here?
Thanks a lot guys, great help so far!
- Christoph Awender
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Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Hello,
The Kompanieführer is the highest officer in the Company so he cannot be the "2iC". As above see a Company Organisation on my site.
Could you explain please. It is always the same pattern ...
Zug/Kompanie/Regiment depending on the arms of Service
Batterie/Abteilung/Regiment with artillery,
Zug/Kompanie/Abteilung/Regiment with tanks
etc...
/Christoph
I would have to look that up too. Not that easy for a infantry formation.suitable Batallion or company having fought both in the east and west from 43 onwards.
Always divided by a "/"A general question, should the designation be separated by comma or divide (/)?
There is no reason for a space in between - If you want to use the german term you should write "Schuetzenkompanie" when your Keyboard does not Support the "ü".Also, should the numerical (Roman or otherwise) be written together with the name, or with a space between? (6.schutzenkompanie or 6. Schutzencompanie)?
Well, a possible but not usual way of writing because it is clear that the 6.Schuetzenkompanie (6.Kp.) is in the II.Bataillon. So usually they drop these. Inf.Rgt.223 with capital letters at the beginning in german.Example Company - "6. Schutzenkompanie/ II. Bat/ inf.rgt.223"
A Stabskompanie is not the Company command. A Stabskompanie is the Headquarter company of a Regiment. You can see the Organisation on my site.Company Command - "Stabskompanie"
CiC - Hauptmann
2iC - Kompanieführer
The Kompanieführer is the highest officer in the Company so he cannot be the "2iC". As above see a Company Organisation on my site.
[1st Platoon - "I. Zug, 6. Schutzen" (Is the abbreviation to "schutzen" only correct?")
I. Zug Stabsgruppe, Oberstleutnant or Leutnant
/quote]
No the Designation "Schuetzen" only in this context is not correct... either 6.Kp. (Schuetzenkompanie is clear in a Infanterieregiment) or 6.Schuetzenkompanie.
Such a thing like a Stabsgruppe did not exist. Don´t know where that comes from.
The pattern repeats in every Company you have a I.-IV.Zug.Same for II and III zug. Now, question is, does the Kompanie pattern repeat? I.e. since its 6. schuzenkompanie, is it also supposed to be V-VII zug? And within the "Zugen", 1-9 gruppe across the three Platoons?
I'm also having some trouble with how to designate batallion and divisional assets attached to the company for a specific battle, any ideas here?
Could you explain please. It is always the same pattern ...
Zug/Kompanie/Regiment depending on the arms of Service
Batterie/Abteilung/Regiment with artillery,
Zug/Kompanie/Abteilung/Regiment with tanks
etc...
/Christoph
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Thank you very much for all the information so far! I've been looking a lot at your site, excellent resource and very detailed.
Lets try this again and see if I get it somewhat better;
Kompanietrupp; 6. Grenadierekompanie/Inf.Rgt.558
Commanding officer: Kompaniefuehrer
Second in command: Haubtfeldwebel. Or is it the kompanietruppfuehrer? This would be an officer leading the company in case the kompaniefuehrer is out of action.
I. ZUG
Commanding officer: Zugfuehrer
1.Grenadieregruppe/I.Zug
2.Grenadieregruppe/I.Zug
3.Grenadieregruppe/I.Zug
Repeated for II and III Zug.
Now, for combat missions the company was often allocated assets detached from the Batalion and/or divisional level. If I wanted to clearly mark the original positions of these attached troops, how would I write it out? These are some examples (probably completely wrong);
Attached regimental antitank gun platoon, presumably part of a regimental antitank company;
III.Zug Panzergeshuetz/8.Panzerjägerkompanie/Inf.Rgt.558 (Or should it be Abteilung? When do I use one over the other? Maybe this should even be part of the Feld-Ersatz Battalion?)
Attached Divisional Armored Platoon, Presumably part of an armored battalion attached to the division itself by corps command.
II.Zug Panzer/9.Panzerkompanie/III.PanzerBatalion/331.Grenadier-Division
I’ve decided to go with the 331st infantry division, 558th Infantry regiment, a division having fought both in the east and the west late war. I’m having trouble finding which Batallions were in that regiment though. I know you wrote I.Batallion, II.Batallion and so on above, but when researching formations the batallions I see seem to have numbers attached to them, like 554th grenadier battalion (fictional unit for reference) and so on. Do you know anything about this?
Lets try this again and see if I get it somewhat better;
Kompanietrupp; 6. Grenadierekompanie/Inf.Rgt.558
Commanding officer: Kompaniefuehrer
Second in command: Haubtfeldwebel. Or is it the kompanietruppfuehrer? This would be an officer leading the company in case the kompaniefuehrer is out of action.
I. ZUG
Commanding officer: Zugfuehrer
1.Grenadieregruppe/I.Zug
2.Grenadieregruppe/I.Zug
3.Grenadieregruppe/I.Zug
Repeated for II and III Zug.
Now, for combat missions the company was often allocated assets detached from the Batalion and/or divisional level. If I wanted to clearly mark the original positions of these attached troops, how would I write it out? These are some examples (probably completely wrong);
Attached regimental antitank gun platoon, presumably part of a regimental antitank company;
III.Zug Panzergeshuetz/8.Panzerjägerkompanie/Inf.Rgt.558 (Or should it be Abteilung? When do I use one over the other? Maybe this should even be part of the Feld-Ersatz Battalion?)
Attached Divisional Armored Platoon, Presumably part of an armored battalion attached to the division itself by corps command.
II.Zug Panzer/9.Panzerkompanie/III.PanzerBatalion/331.Grenadier-Division
I’ve decided to go with the 331st infantry division, 558th Infantry regiment, a division having fought both in the east and the west late war. I’m having trouble finding which Batallions were in that regiment though. I know you wrote I.Batallion, II.Batallion and so on above, but when researching formations the batallions I see seem to have numbers attached to them, like 554th grenadier battalion (fictional unit for reference) and so on. Do you know anything about this?
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Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
possible I II and such were the organic battalion and the 554 would be an attached. not positive
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Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Designations in Inf Regts tends to follow a standard pattern. Bns were commonly numbered 1st, 2nd and 3rd, as applicable, so you don't necessarily need to 'know' exact Bn designations from contemporary documents; if there were two in the Regt, one would be first and the other second. Likewise where Coys were numbered (or lettered as in US practice), you'd start with the first Coy of the first Bn and work sequentially through the Coys, so 1-4 in 1st Bn (or A-D), 5-8 in 2nd Bn (or E-H) and so on. Bn HQs or HQ Coys weren't included in such a sequence. German Regts numbered the Regtl level support Coys, I think starting with Inf Gun, as 13, then Atk as 14, and if the Regt had any more such assets continuing on. (US Regts always skip J Coy though).
German Coys differed from British/US equivalents, in that there was no 2-in-C or XO at Coy HQ; if the Company CO became a casualty then the senior Platoon officer took charge as I recall. When German Coys switched to one officer and two senior NCOs to lead three Rifle Pls there were only two commissioned officers in the entire Coy.
Regtl weapons could be allocated out to Inf Bns, and a Rifle Coy may be heavily reinforced for a specific mission, but a Rifle Coy would rarely get a full Atk Pl attached directly to it. Likewise armoured units would rarely work alongside standard Inf down to such a level, and the armoured units most likely to support Inf Divs would be Stug units.
If you really want to get tied in knots over small unit nomenclature and designations, you need to go with the British
Gary
German Coys differed from British/US equivalents, in that there was no 2-in-C or XO at Coy HQ; if the Company CO became a casualty then the senior Platoon officer took charge as I recall. When German Coys switched to one officer and two senior NCOs to lead three Rifle Pls there were only two commissioned officers in the entire Coy.
Regtl weapons could be allocated out to Inf Bns, and a Rifle Coy may be heavily reinforced for a specific mission, but a Rifle Coy would rarely get a full Atk Pl attached directly to it. Likewise armoured units would rarely work alongside standard Inf down to such a level, and the armoured units most likely to support Inf Divs would be Stug units.
If you really want to get tied in knots over small unit nomenclature and designations, you need to go with the British
Gary
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Thanks for that Gary. Do you know when I should use the term "gruppe" and when I should use the term "abteilung"?Gary Kennedy wrote:Designations in Inf Regts tends to follow a standard pattern. Bns were commonly numbered 1st, 2nd and 3rd, as applicable, so you don't necessarily need to 'know' exact Bn designations from contemporary documents; if there were two in the Regt, one would be first and the other second. Likewise where Coys were numbered (or lettered as in US practice), you'd start with the first Coy of the first Bn and work sequentially through the Coys, so 1-4 in 1st Bn (or A-D), 5-8 in 2nd Bn (or E-H) and so on. Bn HQs or HQ Coys weren't included in such a sequence. German Regts numbered the Regtl level support Coys, I think starting with Inf Gun, as 13, then Atk as 14, and if the Regt had any more such assets continuing on. (US Regts always skip J Coy though).
German Coys differed from British/US equivalents, in that there was no 2-in-C or XO at Coy HQ; if the Company CO became a casualty then the senior Platoon officer took charge as I recall. When German Coys switched to one officer and two senior NCOs to lead three Rifle Pls there were only two commissioned officers in the entire Coy.
Regtl weapons could be allocated out to Inf Bns, and a Rifle Coy may be heavily reinforced for a specific mission, but a Rifle Coy would rarely get a full Atk Pl attached directly to it. Likewise armoured units would rarely work alongside standard Inf down to such a level, and the armoured units most likely to support Inf Divs would be Stug units.
If you really want to get tied in knots over small unit nomenclature and designations, you need to go with the British
Gary
Also, did they, and if they did how did they, number divisional support assets?
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Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
331 Inf Div does look to have been nice and straightforward, in that the Artillery Regt, Atk, Recce and Pio Bns were all numbered as 331, the same extending to the supply, transport, medical, ordnance vet and postal units of the Div. Now from memory German Arty Regts numbered Batteries sequentially in the same manner as the Inf Regt, so 1st, 2nd and 3rd Btys in 1st Bn, 4th, 5th and 6th Btys in 2nd Bn, and so on. The other Bn sized combat units would number their Coys 1st through whatever.
I think that within the context of a Division, a gruppe would be a Squad, so a subunit of a Platoon, itself part of a Company. Inf and Pioneers used the term Battalion, while Panzer, Recce, Arty, Atk and AA used Abteilung.
If you can afford the bandwidth, the Stumpanzer.com website has Kriegsgliederung for the German Army at various points in the war, up until the end of 1943 at least. These are charts showing the authorised composition of Divisions and other units and HQs, so should give you an overview of the development of 331 Div in particular.
Gary
I think that within the context of a Division, a gruppe would be a Squad, so a subunit of a Platoon, itself part of a Company. Inf and Pioneers used the term Battalion, while Panzer, Recce, Arty, Atk and AA used Abteilung.
If you can afford the bandwidth, the Stumpanzer.com website has Kriegsgliederung for the German Army at various points in the war, up until the end of 1943 at least. These are charts showing the authorised composition of Divisions and other units and HQs, so should give you an overview of the development of 331 Div in particular.
Gary
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Very good idea! Where exactly would I find something regarding the 331st in particular? I've been looking at the sturmpanzer documents but they're something of a mess. Do you have any tips?Gary Kennedy wrote:331 Inf Div does look to have been nice and straightforward, in that the Artillery Regt, Atk, Recce and Pio Bns were all numbered as 331, the same extending to the supply, transport, medical, ordnance vet and postal units of the Div. Now from memory German Arty Regts numbered Batteries sequentially in the same manner as the Inf Regt, so 1st, 2nd and 3rd Btys in 1st Bn, 4th, 5th and 6th Btys in 2nd Bn, and so on. The other Bn sized combat units would number their Coys 1st through whatever.
I think that within the context of a Division, a gruppe would be a Squad, so a subunit of a Platoon, itself part of a Company. Inf and Pioneers used the term Battalion, while Panzer, Recce, Arty, Atk and AA used Abteilung.
If you can afford the bandwidth, the Stumpanzer.com website has Kriegsgliederung for the German Army at various points in the war, up until the end of 1943 at least. These are charts showing the authorised composition of Divisions and other units and HQs, so should give you an overview of the development of 331 Div in particular.
Gary
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Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
If you go to the documents section;
http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx ... em=3&sec=0
It will depend how far back you want to go in the Div's history. Looks like you want;
T78R406 - H1/95 - Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres, Stand: 15 Oktober 1942 (Part 3)
T78R409 - H1/103.2 - Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres Band I: Stand September 1943
Or of course we could just do things the easy way and refer to the site linked at the top of this page
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations ... e-division
Gary
http://www.sturmpanzer.com/Default.aspx ... em=3&sec=0
It will depend how far back you want to go in the Div's history. Looks like you want;
T78R406 - H1/95 - Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres, Stand: 15 Oktober 1942 (Part 3)
T78R409 - H1/103.2 - Kriegsgliederung des Feldheeres Band I: Stand September 1943
Or of course we could just do things the easy way and refer to the site linked at the top of this page
http://www.axishistory.com/axis-nations ... e-division
Gary
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
First, a big thank you to all of you. With all of the wonderful help you've given me the project is finally underway.
Of course, there are always new hurdles, so I suspect I will be checking in here quite a bit. For example, what would I call a panzershreck team attached to a platoon?
Of course, there are always new hurdles, so I suspect I will be checking in here quite a bit. For example, what would I call a panzershreck team attached to a platoon?
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
And what about a scout unit? Like A platoon of infantry scouts, would that be a Spähgruppe, Jäger or fusillier?
Like, hm, for example;
3.Spähgruppe/II.Zug/331.Auf.Bat
Like, hm, for example;
3.Spähgruppe/II.Zug/331.Auf.Bat