Need information on company OOB and designation
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Yet another question, I see Kompanie and Abteilung being used for both Infantry and armored formations. When is it correct to use one or the other?
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
More confusion. While researching the designations of AT assets I've come across several different labels. I havent been able to see a clear pattern, does anyone know when to use each of them? Same with flak assets, sometimes named "flak (.fla) and sometimes named "uberschwere M.G Kompanie". Examples follow:
1.(Pz.Jäg.)Zug
- 1,2,3etc Geschutz 3.7cm PAK
Inf.Panz.Jäg.Zg – Infanteriepanzerjägerzug
- 1,2,3,4 etc Schutzen (7.5cm PaK oder 7.6cm PaK)
1.(Panz.Zerst.) Zug - Panzer Zerstören Zug
1.(Pz.Jäg.)Zug
- 1,2,3etc Geschutz 3.7cm PAK
Inf.Panz.Jäg.Zg – Infanteriepanzerjägerzug
- 1,2,3,4 etc Schutzen (7.5cm PaK oder 7.6cm PaK)
1.(Panz.Zerst.) Zug - Panzer Zerstören Zug
-
- Member
- Posts: 1001
- Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 19:56
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
I think the "Panzer-Zerstören" term was used for atk units or subunits specifically using the Panzerschreck, at least it looks that way from the KStN titles.
I'm not sure that subunits down to Squad level were specifically called 'spah'. The Fusilier Bn was the recce unit for the Type 1943 Grenadier Div, and apart from having one Coy equipped with bicycles was effectively the same as a Bn in the Grenadier Regts. Jager was a term used more widely, mostly for Regts or Bns outside of Inf Div type formations. The Inf Div Recce unit underwent a lot of changes during the war and was called different things at different times.
Referring to a 2-cm equipped light AA unit as 'very heavy machine gun' seems to have been a late war development, back end of 1944 say. It was probably nothing more than a nomenclature change and the equipments stayed the same.
I understood that Abteilung (which roughly translates as department or division in English) wasn't used by the Infantry or Panzer Grenadiers, whereas Kompanie meant the same for Inf, Armd, Recce or Pio units.
Gary
I'm not sure that subunits down to Squad level were specifically called 'spah'. The Fusilier Bn was the recce unit for the Type 1943 Grenadier Div, and apart from having one Coy equipped with bicycles was effectively the same as a Bn in the Grenadier Regts. Jager was a term used more widely, mostly for Regts or Bns outside of Inf Div type formations. The Inf Div Recce unit underwent a lot of changes during the war and was called different things at different times.
Referring to a 2-cm equipped light AA unit as 'very heavy machine gun' seems to have been a late war development, back end of 1944 say. It was probably nothing more than a nomenclature change and the equipments stayed the same.
I understood that Abteilung (which roughly translates as department or division in English) wasn't used by the Infantry or Panzer Grenadiers, whereas Kompanie meant the same for Inf, Armd, Recce or Pio units.
Gary
- Leo Niehorster
- Member
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: 21 Jan 2004, 23:07
- Location: Hangover, Germany
- Contact:
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Hi Gary,
The type being raised as of August 1944 with the designation "(ss) MG-Bataillon 2cm-Drilling", the (ss) being überschere, was the former "Festungs-MG-Bataillon" (fortress MG battalion). Redesignated again in November 1944 as "Festungs-Infanterie-Fla-Battalion", (fortress infantry AA battalion) or even just "Infaterie-Fla-Batallion" (infantry AA battalion).
See also Tessin, Vol. 1, pp.143–144.
There was no change in equipment or organization in either 1939 or in 1944. Just the usual German Army moving the shells around. The pea stayed the same.
Cheers
Leo
Interestingly enough, the 2cm antiaircraft gun units were initially also referred to as "Heavy Machine Gun". For example, the 1937 KStN 191 was originally designated as "Machinengewehr-Kompanie (s) (mot Z)", the (s) being schwer or schwerste. Then, in October 1939, they were redesignated as "2cm Fla-Kompanie".Referring to a 2-cm equipped light AA unit as 'very heavy machine gun' seems to have been a late war development, back end of 1944 say. It was probably nothing more than a nomenclature change and the equipments stayed the same.
The type being raised as of August 1944 with the designation "(ss) MG-Bataillon 2cm-Drilling", the (ss) being überschere, was the former "Festungs-MG-Bataillon" (fortress MG battalion). Redesignated again in November 1944 as "Festungs-Infanterie-Fla-Battalion", (fortress infantry AA battalion) or even just "Infaterie-Fla-Batallion" (infantry AA battalion).
See also Tessin, Vol. 1, pp.143–144.
There was no change in equipment or organization in either 1939 or in 1944. Just the usual German Army moving the shells around. The pea stayed the same.
Cheers
Leo
-
- Member
- Posts: 1001
- Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 19:56
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Cheers Leo, I hadn't realised the designation was used very early on, then changed and came back again (sort of)
- Christoph Awender
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 6759
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 18:22
- Location: Austria
- Contact:
Re: Need information on company OOB and designation
Hello,
Most question have been answered during my vacation I see.
If a unit tactically formed an reconnaissance asset it was called a Spähtrupp - if it was used to also assault an objective a Stosstrupp.
Such a Spähtrupp in a infantry unit was usually formed that way:
The company commander decided how important the reconnaissance mission or target was. Then he decided or was ordered from a higher unit (Bataillon etc..) if he formed a NCO Spähtrupp or an officer Spähtrupp (Offiziersspähtrupp) he then either led it himself or designated one of his NCOs (usually he first asked for a volunteer). Then they (usually also volunteers) put together the men they needed usually from the Zug or the Gruppe of the Person leading the Spähtrupp.
Two different things:
Kompanie used in infantry and armoured Units - Abteilung (Panzer, Artillerie etc..) and Bataillon (Infanterie etc..) were larger formations than companies.
/Christoph
Most question have been answered during my vacation I see.
An often used term was Panzerzerstörertrupp no matter what kind of close range AT weapons they had. Usually no more detailed designation needed. If you would Need to Detail it it would be Panzerzerstörertrupp 1, 2, 3 etc... 1.Kp./I.R.26 for example.Of course, there are always new hurdles, so I suspect I will be checking in here quite a bit. For example, what would I call a panzershreck team attached to a platoon?
The term Spähgruppe did not exist. In an reconnaissance formation the Terms were the same - Aufklärungsabteilung/1.Kompanie/3.GruppeAnd what about a scout unit? Like A platoon of infantry scouts, would that be a Spähgruppe, Jäger or fusillier?
Like, hm, for example;
3.Spähgruppe/II.Zug/331.Auf.Bat
If a unit tactically formed an reconnaissance asset it was called a Spähtrupp - if it was used to also assault an objective a Stosstrupp.
Such a Spähtrupp in a infantry unit was usually formed that way:
The company commander decided how important the reconnaissance mission or target was. Then he decided or was ordered from a higher unit (Bataillon etc..) if he formed a NCO Spähtrupp or an officer Spähtrupp (Offiziersspähtrupp) he then either led it himself or designated one of his NCOs (usually he first asked for a volunteer). Then they (usually also volunteers) put together the men they needed usually from the Zug or the Gruppe of the Person leading the Spähtrupp.
Yet another question, I see Kompanie and Abteilung being used for both Infantry and armored formations. When is it correct to use one or the other?
Two different things:
Kompanie used in infantry and armoured Units - Abteilung (Panzer, Artillerie etc..) and Bataillon (Infanterie etc..) were larger formations than companies.
/Christoph