Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Post Reply
Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#1

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Jul 2014, 11:25

[Split from "Why the Waffen-SS"]

Hi Marcus,

The claimed "social egineering" side of the W-SS may also not be strictly on thread, but here goes:

According to Wegner/Goldsworthy the previous professions of W-SS officers was as follows:

Obergruppenfuhrer to Standartenfuhrer (Lt. General to Colonel)

Army officers 23.8%
Army NCos 8.7%
Police officials 14.7%
Other civil servants 6.4%
Academic professions 21.9%
Workers/clerks 7.9%
Farmers 3.4%
Businessmen 15.8%
Craftsmen 9.8%
No profession given or unemployed 4.5%

Obersturmbannfuhrer to Sturmbannfuhrer (Lt. Colonel to Major)

Army officers 1.9%
Army NCos 8.8%
Police officials 11.4%
Other civil servants 4.1%
Academic professions 3.8%
Workers/clerks 11.4%
Farmers 5.0%
Businessmen 18%
Craftsmen 27.1%
No profession given or unemployed 20.2%

(The totals do not add to exactly 100% because some men had more than one previous profession.)

The other thing not registered is that the vast majority of SS officers were members of the Nazi Party, which in practice reduced its prospective pool of recruitment by about 95%, as party members were only a very small proportion of the country at large. One has to wonder whether the Nazi Party really was the repository of military aptitude this implies!

Finally, these statistics mean little on their own without comparable Army figures. The Army expanded 100-fold over 1933-44 and its officer corps underwent a similar "democraticization" over this period.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#2

Post by BillHermann » 27 Jul 2014, 21:38

Sid,

Fascinating stats, I find the No profession given or unemployed for the (Lt. Colonel to Major) interesting. It would suggest a possible lack of professionalism and leadership skills.


User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3233
Joined: 19 May 2005, 19:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#3

Post by Harro » 29 Jul 2014, 20:45

It seems to me that those who, for example, went to the Junkerschulen as Abiturients are also listed in the "No profession given or unemployed" category. As such, "no profession" does not per definition mirror a lack of professionalism or leadership skills. Keep in mind that those who rose to the rank of SS-Sturmbannführer (major) and higher usually joined an SS Standarte in the early or mid 1930s and often straight out of highschool.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#4

Post by BillHermann » 30 Jul 2014, 06:10

Indeed,

My comment was more in relation to the concept of the pure "elite" staus assuming that the majority may have come from educated / degree / eldership roles at the (Lt. Colonel to Major) level. I am absolutely clear that during war you must get candidates where you can.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#5

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Aug 2014, 22:23

Hi Harro,

You write, ".....that those who rose to the rank of SS-Sturmbannführer (major) and higher usually joined an SS Standarte in the early or mid 1930s and often straight out of highschool."

"Often" is a vague term. It seems potentially to conflict with the stats above, which leave scope for only about 20% to be directly from high school, even assuming no other sources account for some of that 20%.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
Harro
Member
Posts: 3233
Joined: 19 May 2005, 19:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#6

Post by Harro » 03 Aug 2014, 22:56

It seems to me you totally misunderstood what I meant/said or are making too much of it. Obviously (well, at least to me) my "often" remark does not refer to the total of SS officers ranking Sturmbannführer and higher, but specifically only to those in the "no profession" category who joined an SS Standarte in the early or mid 1930s. In other words: a certain percentage within the 20 percent attended the Junkerschulen without a profession or jon but with a highschool diploma (usually Abiturient) or university grade and got their professionalism and leadership skills from their service in the SS-Standarten and the SS-Junker courses. This was a specific reply to Bill, who commented about a supposed lack professionalism and leadership qualities within that specific "no profession" category.

Halle
Member
Posts: 73
Joined: 22 Jun 2012, 09:03

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#7

Post by Halle » 04 Aug 2014, 07:36

BillHermann wrote:Sid,

Fascinating stats, I find the No profession given or unemployed for the (Lt. Colonel to Major) interesting. It would suggest a possible lack of professionalism and leadership skills.

Could it be that they were high enough up the social scale ( ie very well off / part of the aristocracy ) to be able to give this reply ? In the UK , it was still considered perfectly acceptable to be just a " Gentleman " .

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#8

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Aug 2014, 10:38

Perhaps, perhaps not. However, if so, it tends to reinforce the point that the W-SS was not the fast track to professional and social advancement for the lower orders that is sometimes claimed for it.

You are right about the "Gentleman" being considered a profession in the UK, at least in the early part of the last century. I think it basically meant that one was of independent means - perhaps through inheritance or prudent investment.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#9

Post by BillHermann » 06 Aug 2014, 08:36

Interesting, from the beginnings though, the first 3 to 7 years were not many of the SS recruits disenfranchised members of the army , unemployed and undereducated. They were the beginnings with the political agendas that were very much parallel to their parent organizations. Was it not many of these men that ended up in the top ranks as the organization grew and expanded.

It would only make sense that they would recruit and attract a percentage of non "gentlemen" this says much about the organization and it preconceived post war status.
Last edited by BillHermann on 07 Aug 2014, 01:56, edited 1 time in total.

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#10

Post by j keenan » 06 Aug 2014, 09:36

The early structor must have been educated as they were mostly ex-forces or police ?
The Junkerschules were all set up to Heer standards with officers also going onto secondments with Heer units in some cases before been promoted.They are constantly assessed by there superiors before further promotions so if they were not up to the job I'm sure they would not have been promoted.
I don't see any thing wrong with having no profession or been unemployed if your choosing the SS as your career as it was seen to have good prospects.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#11

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Aug 2014, 12:22

Hi jkeenan,

I don't think anyone sees "any thing wrong with having no profession or been unemployed if your choosing the SS as your career as it was seen to have good prospects."

However, the "prospects" largely related to careerist Nazi party members and the success of the Nazi project, not to military professionalism, of which the German Army was then arguably the world's leading exponent. Your point about some SS officers being attached to Army units before promotion tends to reinforce the latter point. The W-SS was primarily a political project, not a military one. There was no military justification for its creation as an independent arm.

This thread was created as there was a widespread received wisdom on other threads on AHF that the SS was a sort of equal opportunities employer that uniquely gave talented members of the "lower orders" a fast track to promotion. However, an analysis of the above statistics indicates that this was not necessarily the case.

Cheers,

Sid.

j keenan
Financial supporter
Posts: 1575
Joined: 04 Jun 2007, 12:22
Location: North

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#12

Post by j keenan » 06 Aug 2014, 14:05

I'm not saying there is a justification for the Waffen-SS
But from a Nazi point of view there is,the social side you can't prove as the war came along who's to say what would have happened.If it was to stay as the LAH Totenkopf SS-VT and the General SS.
Maybe it would have split differently as the General SS seems to have attracted the educationally elite so to speak reaching high ranking government jobs.With the LAH Totenkopf SS-VT from what I've seen went back into the lower end of the civil service as in customs officials, police or back to the General SS on completion of service.So you may have been fast tracked up the ladder in them cases ?
Also I personal don't think that many people wanted to join the SS-VT up to 1939 think its another myth put forward by authors

User avatar
BillHermann
Member
Posts: 742
Joined: 04 Jan 2012, 16:35
Location: Authie

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#13

Post by BillHermann » 07 Aug 2014, 02:11

Where I am going with this, is it has always been assumed for the last 40+ years that the Waffen-SS has been an elite organization with everyday equal opportunity foundations and leadership. That the Waffen-SS was an organization that ignored "gentlemen" status to join. If you met the requirements and were a believer in the first 5 years you were in. It was only later that this changed, where regulations changed due to necessity.

With the above in mind most elite organizations are planned and organized with well structured educated leaders. As this help in many areas from management to tactics. The parent organization of the Waffen-SS was not this but very much the opposite. Many of these senior members became the backbone of the Waffen-SS.

It is clear that the structure being political and very much against intellectuals makes it an organization that would attract numbers of unemployed to its senior ranks. When you add the political / propaganda messages that were coming out in the 20s / 30s it's not surprising that the unemployed numbers would be higher in the senior ranks.

It is clear that many of the well known infamous officers were anything but "gentlemen" this does not mean that there was a lack of talent and skill as a higher degree of education does not always mean the best it just puts into question the underlying the nature of the officer corrp.

dshaday
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 29 Dec 2013, 19:57

Re: Social structure of the Waffen-SS officer corps

#14

Post by dshaday » 08 Aug 2014, 19:00

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:

According to Wegner/Goldsworthy the previous professions of W-SS officers was as follows:

Obergruppenfuhrer to Standartenfuhrer (Lt. General to Colonel)

Army officers 23.8%
Army NCos 8.7%
Police officials 14.7%
Other civil servants 6.4%
Academic professions 21.9%
Workers/clerks 7.9%
Farmers 3.4%
Businessmen 15.8%
Craftsmen 9.8%
No profession given or unemployed 4.5%

Obersturmbannfuhrer to Sturmbannfuhrer (Lt. Colonel to Major)

Army officers 1.9%
Army NCos 8.8%
Police officials 11.4%
Other civil servants 4.1%
Academic professions 3.8%
Workers/clerks 11.4%
Farmers 5.0%
Businessmen 18%
Craftsmen 27.1%
No profession given or unemployed 20.2%

(The totals do not add to exactly 100% because some men had more than one previous profession.)

Sid
As stated before, I only have an issue with these figures because their context is not described. This makes drawing conclusions from them somewhat flawed. I fully realise that they are the best publicly/readily available, but I would not put too much value in them.

Are the figures a snapshot in time? Then when? How did these figures trend over time? Peacetime? Wartime?
I see that the source are CVs prepared by the officers. Did every officer submit one, or is this a sampling of the officer corps?
The figures cover only the middle to higher end of the SS officer corps. What about the junior to middle ranks which would probably comprise most of the SS officers by number?
Ideally we would need comparable army figures to draw further conclusions.

In any case the figures also indicate:
1/ Previous army officers were the largest group to occupy the ranks of Colonel to General (Almost 25%), but did not bunch up at Major to Colonel (2%) . Is this because the Army did not give them this career opportunity so they transferred to the SS with a significant jump in rank?
2/ Previous army NCOs filled almost 9% of positions from Major to General. That is a way good career/social move for them !
3/ What about officer of the rank of General. They have been left out.
4/ But what about the junior to middle officer statistic (up to Captain). Were they farmers’ sons ? Did joining the Waffen SS mean that they became a Captain whereas in the Army they may only have made a much lesser rank? Who knows (becoming a captain can also be a significant social advancement).

In peacetime, the Waffen SS gave members officer training opportunities (if they showed leadership potential) and were not allowed to prejudice their application by rejecting them on educational or non-political grounds (which I suspect is something the Army would do). About 40% of the officer cadets accepted before 1938 had only elementary school education. As it turned out the cadets in 1940 had a failure rate of 30-40% (with lack of education being one of the main reasons). So this “egalitarian” ideal came back to bite them.

To me, the pre-war Waffen SS presented new career opportunities in addition to those of the expanding army. It had a separate budget o the Army and was raised in parallel. It did not take positions away from the army. Do you agree? Of more interest is whether the extra SS officer opportunities were “significant”.
Did the Waffen SS positions offer a significant number of career opportunities? Then in absolute terms, maybe. Relative to the Army - maybe not.
Did the career opportunities offer a better quality career relative to the new positions being created in the expanding army? Then I would be inclined to think - yes. If you mean a fast track to a high SS rank? Then I have no idea (although your army NCOs in the table may say yes).

All the best

Dennis

dshaday
Member
Posts: 628
Joined: 29 Dec 2013, 19:57

Re: Why the Waffen-SS

#15

Post by dshaday » 08 Aug 2014, 19:28

Hi Bill
BillHermann wrote:Sid,

Fascinating stats, I find the No profession given or unemployed for the (Lt. Colonel to Major) interesting. It would suggest a possible lack of professionalism and leadership skills.
From the figures we cannot say how many were unemployed(or why) and we do not know why a profession was not given. Bearing in mind that "No profession listed" does not mean "no profession". The data was sourced from CVs and not an application form. For all I know the applicant may not have bothered listing a profession because he did not think it relevant/important to the position he was applying for. Or if that person subsequently acquired professional skills. The data is not clear.

All we can do is guess.

All the best

Dennis

Post Reply

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”