The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

[Harro]

At this point the few groups remaining to complete the historical picture are the Hottentots, the Vulkans and the Elvis Impersonators - no doubt led by Otto Skorzeny himself.

I beginning to feel more like Bill Murray waking up each morning to Sonny and Cher in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania.!!

I just spilled my tea and my burst of laughter woke up my girlfriend

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Hi Rob,

hi rob

" I can think of another senior SS officer who attempted to change sides and killed himself - Himmler!"

I have tried not to club all the SS 'traitors' in the same category. Himmler's crime was to secretly deal with the western allies (americans; world jewish congress, swiss and swedish diplomats, against expressly stated state policy. yes he did no doubt try to save his own skin cynically..going to the extent of suddenly acting as a "jew-lover" ( imagine..Himmler!!) since january '45 and pretending that the jewish extermination programme was hitler's and he would stop evacuating the remaining concentration camps so that the inmates were not at risk during the forced marches to new locations... he did in fact manage to send a few trainloads of concentration camp inmates to switzerland.

But he didnt explicitly offer to kill/deliver/overthrow hitler. Moreover he was under the continuous subversive influence of the careerist smart aleck schellenburg. This guy ..sitting on his high intellectual perch ( of oh-so-subtle-intelligence according to trevor-roper), manipulated himmler throughout, playing on his weaknesses.

However guys like kaltenbrunner went to the extent of using the delivery of the reich's top leadership to the americans, as a bargaining chip in their negotiations with dulles ( OSS) ..there lies the difference.

[Marcus]

A discussion about Charlemange in Berlin was split off into its own thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=211141

A discussion about low morale in the Finnish Battalion was split off to http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=211142

/Marcus

[sandeepmukherjee196]

thanks marcus...you watch the forum like a mother hen indeed and that helps keep things in perspective when we get carried away..the charlemagne discussion had indeed taken on a life of its own ..thanks again..

[Sid Guttridge]

Indeed, the claimed "Military Successes of the Waffen-SS" seem to be falling away off this thread almost as soon as they are investigated in detail!

If they bring down five, do the sceptics get "Ace" status?

Sid.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

hi sid..

i dont think that creating a separate thread for the charlemagne in berlin had anything to do the 'waffen ss military success' claims falling apart ! i see it as a valid step to ensure that justice is done to a historically interesting subject which has a life of its own.
i am yet to see my submissions on the significant role played by the small french contingent in berlin, effectively countered with facts.

ciao

[Michael Kenny]

hi sid..


i am yet to see my submissions on the significant role played by the small french contingent in berlin, effectively countered with facts.

In what way did this small group of men delay/hinder or impact on the massive Russian attack?
I know that this group has a key role to play in the mind of those delusionist who believe the SS was a Pan-European precurser to NATO but other than the self-serving memoirs of the large number of survivors of this 'fought-to-the-death' unit where is your evidence they achieved anything?

[dshaday]

Indeed, the claimed "Military Successes of the Waffen-SS" seem to be falling away off this thread almost as soon as they are investigated in detail!

If they bring down five, do the sceptics get "Ace" status?

You first have to shoot one down !

I would suggest that new threads from various examples of Waffen SS military successes are being created to facilitate discussion. Not because they don't qualify as military successes. Case in point is the Belgrade discussion.

Regards

Dennis

[sandeepmukherjee196]

dennis.. you are so on the dot

[sandeepmukherjee196]

hi michael..

neither the small french contingent nor the entire army group vistula were able to make any material difference to the berlin offensive ! in the end none of that mattered..that doesnt prove that individual units, formations and people didnt leave an imprint in the tactical or political sense.

fenet's men, like the heroic HJ unit at the pichelsdorf bridge, delayed the final collapse, served their leader's final agenda of doing things his way till the last sordid moment.

since the charlemagne's role in berlin has been hived off into a separate thread, i wouldnt like to prolong this discussion here. but since you imply that no proper historian has anything to say about the frenchmen at berlin pl refer to my earlier posting where i have given page numbers from antony beevor's " berlin the downfall, 1945"

ciao

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I would urge readers to look at the following three successor threads:

Charlemagne in Berlin, Waffen-SS Military Successes - Belgrade 1941, and Waffen-SS Military Successes - Operation Panzerfaust 1944,

and judge for themselves the current airworthiness of these "Waffen-SS Military Successes".

I would suggest that in no case does the received Waffen-SS-centric story stand up fully to scrutiny.

Cheers,

Sid.

[dshaday]

Hi Guys,

I would urge readers to look at the following three successor threads:

Charlemagne in Berlin, Waffen-SS Military Successes - Belgrade 1941, and Waffen-SS Military Successes - Operation Panzerfaust 1944,

and judge for themselves the current airworthiness of these "Waffen-SS Military Successes".

I would suggest that in no case does the received Waffen-SS-centric story stand up fully to scrutiny.

I would also encourage readers to read and respond to the posts in these threads.

As for the threads regarding Panzerfaust and Belgrade, I would disagree with the above opinion ( I am not familiar with Charlemagne in Berlin to comment).

Regards

Dennis

[Marcus]

An off-topic exchange regarding the death of Peiper was split off into its own thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=211969

/Marcus

[EugE]

Hi ljadw

6 divisions were committed at Charkov: 6,11 and 17 Pz and 1,2 and 3 SS;thus it is not correct to say that Charkow was a WSS victory At Arnhem : a lot of non WSS units were committed,even from the KM.Also the Wossowski batallion of the HG division .Thus,here also it is not correct to say that Arnhem was a WSS victory .

Now I understand your point.
I am talking about Waffen SS military successes, as per the thread title. This does not limit discussion to military actions where the Waffen SS was the only force involved in the engagement.

In the specific case of the capture of Kharkov that I listed, I am only aware of Waffen SS troops being involved. They alone captured the city.

I did not refer to the whole Kharkov offensive as being a solely Waffen SS operation. Although the Waffen SS played a critical role in achieving the results gained in that successful offensive.

It is quite true and correct to say that Wehrmacht troops were often involved in operations with the Waffen SS . That is why I was careful in my description of the military successes I attributed to the Waffen SS.

Consequently, I still stand by my original post as being correct.

Regards

Dennis

For the information
Soviet 3 tank army had under the list 393 tanks at the beginning of Kharkov battle, in addition to it have allocated 163 more tanks. In fighting usages there were 165 tanks, in various repair 228. It has 49663 of manpower.
This army has been involved from the right wing of the DR, all line of defence LSSAH and its open right flank.
From February 1 till February 20th it have made repair of 400 tanks by army line fault services- TsAМО RF, file. 217, inv. 4487, doc. 85, pages 78,79. The cost for 3 TA were 11489 KIA,MIA,WIA. 45 tanks totally damaged.

[Cult Icon]

Going back to the OP, in search of outstanding feats of W-SS divisions during WW2. As for the rest of the war, I haven't found any yet:

1. 1.SSLAH against 5GTA, Citadel 1943 (operated efficiently, mission failed)
2. Kharkov-Belgorod 1943: 2.SS 'DR', 3.SS 'TK' (operated efficiently, mission failed).

Possibilities ???: 5.SS in the Caucasus 1942? SS in the Ukraine 1943 autumn-winter?