The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

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rossmcpharter
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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#181

Post by rossmcpharter » 26 Dec 2014, 15:26

Only possibility, I see at the moment is 5.ss in Caucasus. Think Ukraine 1943 autumn, winter is worse than 1. and 2.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#182

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Dec 2014, 19:35

Hi Ross....

One would have to be a bit more specific. The Caucasus campaign also includes the division's failure to break through the mountains to Tuapse.

Cheers,

Sid.


rossmcpharter
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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#183

Post by rossmcpharter » 26 Dec 2014, 19:58

Exactly, I'm not even confident about that, they failed!

dshaday
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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#184

Post by dshaday » 27 Dec 2014, 15:51

Hi
rossmcpharter wrote:Exactly, I'm not even confident about that, they failed!
As a general note. The thread title is about Waffen SS successes.
That does not necessarily require outstanding Waffen SS actions, mission successes or strategic victories. This was discussed somewhat near the start of the thread. The discussion of Waffen SS military actions was meant to be as open as possible.

All the best

Dennis

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#185

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Dec 2014, 08:36

There is also mention of 5.SS/3.SS at Warsaw/Hungary. I am not familiar with the tactical performance or these campaigns so others can chime in.....

rossmcpharter
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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#186

Post by rossmcpharter » 29 Dec 2014, 19:21

5.SS/3.SS Essentially they held up 3 Infantry armies with a Tank corps and an air fleet, which could only advance 45 kms from Minsk Mazowiecki to Serock, in over a month, to more or less quote Norbert Bacyk.

In general, the problem as I see it, is these Waffen-SS Mechanized Divisions were used as Fire brigades, always butting themselves against the enemies strongest points, always bleeding themselves white, as at Kursk, so expertise is being lost as it's being built up. It's a no win situation, that's why I wonder if Kharkov could have been different, they could have manoeuvred round it, taking it that way.

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#187

Post by Cult Icon » 29 Dec 2014, 21:49

:thumbsup: Thanks to you, I bought Warsaw II: Praga and will give it a read..I have had only moments with it, but 4.Pz/19.Pz/507th Tiger also feature here.
rossmcpharter wrote:5.SS/3.SS Essentially they held up 3 Infantry armies with a Tank corps and an air fleet, which could only advance 45 kms from Minsk Mazowiecki to Serock, in over a month, to more or less quote Norbert Bacyk.

In general, the problem as I see it, is these Waffen-SS Mechanized Divisions were used as Fire brigades, always butting themselves against the enemies strongest points, always bleeding themselves white, as at Kursk, so expertise is being lost as it's being built up. It's a no win situation, that's why I wonder if Kharkov could have been different, they could have manoeuvred round it, taking it that way.
^^

W/Kharkov III, I agree after reading 'Last Victory in Russia'.

The 3 month program many of the 'Citadel' divisions received was for most the last major upgrade effort. Afterwards, the PzD all became fire brigades with either a partial refitting done in the rear or even at the front. Worn down divisions were put in quieter segments of the front and not assigned offensive operations as much. A way that the Germans created combat power was to use more than one formation in lieu of one or two decent strength ones.

SS-T was present during the Rumania battles of 44' but did little fighting. It was refitting in spring-early summer. The impression I get is that some mechanized divisions were favored for more refitting/rest while others were not so much. The SS were favored, and so was GD (it received a major refitting and rest for 6 weeks in the summer of 44').

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#188

Post by Cult Icon » 31 Dec 2014, 06:36

I read the book(let) and looked at other material. The von Saucken counterstrike (4.Pz, 19.Pz, 3.SS, 5.SS, Hermann-Goering) during the first week of August was overall unsuccessful, with 2nd Tank Army registering only 116 write-offs & stopping the panzers during the big week. The germans take 100+ armor destroyed and damaged. From late July- mid-Oct, the IV SSK, with 4.Pz, defended bitterly, but with no big success of note but the mobile divisions in warsaw did wear down 2TA. 3.SS/5.SS were worn down to KGs by early Sept. The booklet doesn't go into enough detail, unfortunately. I am leaning towards they not distinguishing themselves here.

It is interesting to see 5 Pz. divisions fail so quickly in this battle with a concentric attack. They tried this in Jan 1944 (Op. Watutin) and it succeeded well against 1GTA.
rossmcpharter wrote:5.SS/3.SS Essentially they held up 3 Infantry armies with a Tank corps and an air fleet, which could only advance 45 kms from Minsk Mazowiecki to Serock, in over a month, to more or less quote Norbert Bacyk

With the 5.SS they did not get their panzer regiment/SPW battalion until the spring of 1944 & after the Korsun pocket. The Panther battalion was used in Kowel.

According to 'Viking Panzers', the highlight of this division's armor in 1942-1944 were 1. Caucasus 2. summer of 43': Izyum/Belgorod-Kharkov 3. fall/winter 43' 4. Korsun 5. Warsaw

How about 3.SS in 1943-1944?? Highlights: 1. Kharkov III 2. Citadel, Mius, Belgorod-Kharkov. 3. Fall/winter 43' 4. Warsaw

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#189

Post by dshaday » 31 Dec 2014, 13:39

Hi Cult icon
Cult Icon wrote: I read the book(let) and looked at other material. The von Saucken counterstrike (4.Pz, 19.Pz, 3.SS, 5.SS, Hermann-Goering) during the first week of August was overall unsuccessful, with 2nd Tank Army registering only 116 write-offs & stopping the panzers during the big week. The germans take 100+ armor destroyed and damaged.
In Wikipedia one can read that ( http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1368584):

"Altogether, from 1-10 August the 2nd Tank Army lost 409 killed in action, 1271 wounded and 589 missing. In addition, it lost 284 tanks and self-propelled guns (40% of these losses were non-recoverable, amounting to 113 armoured vehicles lost permanently out of 679 available to the army on July 30. "

So if you compare apples to apples, the Germans appear to lose about 100 armoured vehicles destroyed and damaged and the Soviets loose 284 damaged and destroyed. (About 113 - or 116 - were write-offs by the Soviets, German write offs were - ???).

The website goes on to say that the 3rd Tank Corps was encircled (and destroyed on 3 August), the 8th Guards Tank Corps took heavy losses, and the 16th Tank Corps took significant losses as well. Overall, the Second Tank Army's losses were significant enough that it was withdrawn from the front lines by August 5, 1944.

Shortly after the destruction of 3rd tank Corps the 19 PZ Div and Herman Goering Div are transferred north to shore up some German defences. So the plan to continue the attack and destroy 8th Guards Tank Corp is called off by the Germans.

Also there is no mention of 3rd SS T-K at this battle from 1-10 August - is this a typo on your part?.

Is this an unsuccessful operation for the Germans ?


Regards

Dennis

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#190

Post by Art » 31 Dec 2014, 15:20

dshaday wrote: The website goes on to say that the 3rd Tank Corps was encircled (and destroyed on 3 August)
The phrase "the Russian archives are still closed to historians" indicates that this article was written by real pros :D . In reality this unit met the end of the war in Brandenburg. As early as on 8 August 1944 it still could muster 56 operational tanks and SP guns. The losses of about 1000 men killed and missing clearly contradict to the very idea of destroying any large body of forces. You can also consult the following book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Igor-Nebo ... 20Nebolsin

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#191

Post by Sid Guttridge » 31 Dec 2014, 16:47

Hi rossmcpharter,

You write, "In general, the problem as I see it, is these Waffen-SS Mechanized Divisions were used as Fire brigades, always butting themselves against the enemies strongest points, always bleeding themselves white, as at Kursk, so expertise is being lost as it's being built up."

That is the role and problem of the entire Panzerwaffe, not just of the Waffen-SS armoured units.

Indeed, the creation of numerous Waffen-SS armoured units in the middle of the war aggravated these problems for the Army, because it drew resources away from its own training, expansion and rebuilding. The Waffen-SS created no extra armoured assets for the Wehrmacht at all. You are, in effect, reinforcing the argument against armouring the Waffen-SS.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#192

Post by Art » 31 Dec 2014, 17:01

Art wrote:You can also consult the following book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Igor-Nebo ... 20Nebolsin
Sorry, the second volume dealing with operation at Warsaw seems to be still awaiting publication.

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#193

Post by Cult Icon » 31 Dec 2014, 17:22

I have no trust in wikipedia or internet mumbo-jumbo....not a good source. The von Saucken operation concluded on the 6th after it was clear that they failed. Model's order was for the Pz. units to completely cut off and wipe out the over-extended 2TA spearhead.


You don't compare 'apples to apples' on the eastern front, especially with tank losses. Even a 2:1 ratio of write offs is not favorable by the standards of the panzerwaffe. Basically the operation expended significant combat power to inflict marginal losses on 2TA. A unit is 'destroyed' only if the whole unit is bagged (HQ and rear echelon included), not if they abandon equipment or lose tanks.

My notes:
Tank battle at the Gates of Warsaw 1–6 August 1944:

Four divisions attack: 4. Pz, 19.Pz, HG, 3.SS, 5.SS.

This is the typical concentric attack that aimed at cutting off an armored spearhead and destroying it. (2nd Tank Army's armored corps) It was not successful.

Osprey 'Warsaw':

Quote:
It was not until
3 August that Guderian had the bulk of his four
Panzer divisions in place, with about 174 tanks and
assault guns, to mount a serious counterattack.
However, by this time the 2nd Tank Army had
reinforced its defences to the extent that a pincer
attack was no longer practical and Guderian had to
settle for a concentric attack on the 3rd Tank Corps’
salient around Wolomin.
Quote:
The 2nd Tank Army lost 116 of its 679 remaining tanks and
assault guns during 1–6 August and its 3rd Tank Corps had been pushed
back 20km, but the bulk of its combat power was still intact. Personnel losses
were only 2,200 out of an initial strength of about 35,000 troops. Guderian’s
counterattack had not even affected the 16th Tank Corps, which still held
its position seven kilometres south-east of Praga. Guderian’s counterattack
had failed to harm the Soviet armoured spearhead seriously or to push it
back from Warsaw. Nevertheless, on 7 August Stalin ordered the Stavka to
withdraw the 2nd Tank Army from the Warsaw front and to redeploy it to
the south, leaving only infantry divisions to observe the Germans in Praga.
=====

Warsaw II:

Quote:
The list includes a total of 568 tanks and tracked assault guns (among them 19 SU-57s). According to other sources, which are also based on Soviet records (T. Sawicki, W. Wołoszyn), the 2nd Tank Army on July 17, 1944 was composed of a total of 810 armoured vehicles; (665 tanks, 145 tracked assault-guns) while on July 27, 1944, reports indicated they still possessed some 680 armoured vehicles.

Bacyk, Norbert (2012-06-14). Warzaw II: The Tank Battle at Praga (Kindle Locations 631-634). Leandoer & Ekholm Publishers. Kindle Edition.
Quote:
between July 18 and July 30, 1944, the 2nd Tank Army suffered a total loss of 582 soldiers killed in action, 1,581 wounded and an additional 52 soldiers unaccounted for, along with the loss of approximately 130 tanks and tracked artillery guns. Still, given such a large fighting force, these losses were not all that serious – and the army had potential access to a further 560 to 680 armoured vehicles.

Bacyk, Norbert (2012-06-14). Warzaw II: The Tank Battle at Praga (Kindle Locations 793-796). Leandoer & Ekholm Publishers. Kindle Edition.
August 1st, 1944:

4.Pz: Panther 58 (40), Panzer IV 83 (45), Command 5 (3), PzjIV (12), Marder III (10)

~12,700 men.

Quote:
On August 6, the 2nd Tank Army still had between 334 to 373 armoured vehicles at their disposal, including the withdrawn 16th Tank Corps (134-166 vehicles). But the Soviet soldiers were completely exhausted and their tanks in urgent need of repair. Heavy losses had been suffered. Between July 29 and August 6, it’s not unlikely that as many as 340 tanks and tracked artillery vehicles were put out of action. Calculated beginning from July 18, this mounted to a total loss of close to 470 armoured vehicles (destroyed, damaged, or otherwise non-functional).

Bacyk, Norbert (2012-06-14). Warzaw II: The Tank Battle at Praga (Kindle Locations 1232-1236). Leandoer & Ekholm Publishers. Kindle Edition.
Quote:
The information contained in General Radzjijevskij’s report of August 28 reports only 116 tanks as having been irreparably destroyed during the first week in August.
axishistory estimates: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...13345#p1613345

Quote:
The Germans also suffered significant losses. On August 6, within the 19th Panzer-Division there remained only 28 battle-worthy tanks, while the 4th Panzer-Division had only 40. The Waffen-SS divisions, which had fought at the front for almost a month, had at their disposal 56 tanks within the 3rd SS-Panzer-Division “Totenkopf” and 45 tanks in the 5th SS-Panzer-Division “Wiking”. The elite division “Hermann Göring” which had been sent into battle a week earlier, reported only 51 combat-ready tanks
Author estimates that the 5 x PzDs took between 150-100 tanks total write off and damaged during the big week. Frieser estimates that the divisions were around ~60-80 runners strong (each) before it.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 31 Dec 2014, 17:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#194

Post by dshaday » 31 Dec 2014, 17:35

Hi Art

Regarding 3rd Tank Corps you said, ...
Art wrote:
In reality this unit met the end of the war in Brandenburg. As early as on 8 August 1944 it still could muster more 56 operational tanks and SP guns. The losses of about 1000 men killed and missing clearly contradict to the very idea of destroying any large body of forces. You can also consult the following book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Igor-Nebo ... 20Nebolsin
The book in the link you gave me is not released till February. It is Volume 1, and does not cover August 1944.

Have also noticed "The German Defeat in the East, 1944-45", By Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr. He confirms that 3 SS panzer Division was indeed used in the 1 -10 Aug operations against 2nd Tank Army's vanguard. That 3rd Tank Army was encircled and the pocket later cleared on 11 August. Perhaps not all of 3rd Tank Corps was deployed or destroyed in the vanguard? Hundreds of Soviet tanks and AFV are mentioned as being lost in the operation, with 3,00 killed and 6,000 captured.

On 3 August HG and 19 Pz divisions were diverted to attack bridgeheads at Magnuszew to reduce and seal them off.

I feel that my basic comment to Cult Icon's statement is still basically intact.

Regards

Dennis

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#195

Post by Cult Icon » 31 Dec 2014, 17:39

The original comment was pertaining to the search for 'outstanding successes', btw. The counterstrike Aug. 1-6th was neither a success nor outstanding.

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