The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

"The Waffen-SS created no extra armoured assets for the Wehrmacht at all", is not misleading. It seems to be a fact, if only because, as you rightly pointed out earlier, the Waffen-SS was not formally part of the Wehrmacht.

But I would go further and suggest to you that not only did the Waffen-SS create no extra armoured assets for the Wehrmacht, but that it produced no extra armoured assets for Germany either.

All German tanks were produced to Army specifications in view of Army operational doctrines. The prototypes were tested by the Army, modifications made to Army requirements and the orders placed by the Army. The Waffen-SS had no role in this process at all, as far as I am aware. It was merely the end user of some of the Army tanks from 1943 onwards, by which time the major design work on all the major German tank types (PzkPfw.IV, V & VI) used for the rest of the war had already been undertaken.

As I mentioned before, the only original direct Waffen-SS armament orders I am aware of were placed in the Protectorate earlier in the war and were not of armour.

I am, as ever, willing to be educated as to what "extra armoured assets" the Waffen-SS produced, not just for the Wehrmacht, but for Germany at all.

What were they? I can think of only two rather marginal possibilities. Some of the manpower of the armoured battalion of the Wiking Division (though not the vehicles) and the captured T-34 tanks used by a company or two of the Waffen-SS panzer corps early in 1943, pending the delivery of German vehicles - though who refurbished them seems to be an open question (anyone?).

Otherwise, nothing the senior, Reich-raised W-SS divisions possessed, be it manpower or equipment, seems to have been extra assets for the Wehrmacht or Germany, as all were diverted off the German Army, which had developed the weaponry for itself.

Cheers,

Sid.

[dshaday]

Hi Sid

The Waffen-SS created no extra armoured assets for the Wehrmacht at all", is not misleading. It seems to be a fact, if only because, as you rightly pointed out earlier, the Waffen-SS was not formally part of the Wehrmacht.

Good. So now your statement has gone from “self evident” to “seems to be a fact”.

I pointed out that the Waffen SS (and its predecessor) was not part of the Wehrmacht, but in time of war it is subordinate to the army for use while in the field.

But I would go further and suggest to you that not only did the Waffen-SS create no extra armoured assets for the Wehrmacht, but that it produced no extra armoured assets for Germany either.

Again, since the Waffen SS is at the disposal of the army, it was at the disposal/use of the Wehrmacht and added to its available armoured assets.

All German tanks were produced to Army specifications in view of Army operational doctrines. The prototypes were tested by the Army, modifications made to Army requirements and the orders placed by the Army. The Waffen-SS had no role in this process at all, as far as I am aware. It was merely the end user of some of the Army tanks from 1943 onwards, by which time the major design work on all the major German tank types (PzkPfw.IV, V & VI) used for the rest of the war had already been undertaken.

All German tanks were designed by private companies to army vehicle wants list (or contract). Being the primary, intended user the army was tasked with the mechanics of selection, quality control and storage.

The Germans were not so silly as to insist that the SS should place their own contracts for exactly the same piece of equipment, or worse yet for something completely different. Compatibility and saving costs is more important. It is Hitler who has the final word, it is the state that pays for the tanks/stugs.

As I mentioned before, the only original direct Waffen-SS armament orders I am aware of were placed in the Protectorate earlier in the war and were not of armour.

We are not talking about small arms.

I am, as ever, willing to be educated as to what "extra armoured assets" the Waffen-SS produced, not just for the Wehrmacht, but for Germany at all.

What were they? I can think of only two rather marginal possibilities. Some of the manpower of the armoured battalion of the Wiking Division (though not the vehicles) and the captured T-34 tanks used by a company or two of the Waffen-SS panzer corps early in 1943, pending the delivery of German vehicles - though who refurbished them seems to be an open question (anyone?).

I made mention of the use of captured T-34 tanks in my last post.

This alone, can invalidate your initial premise. Since you said “The Waffen-SS created no extra armoured assets for the Wehrmacht at all” (my emphasis).

Otherwise, nothing the senior, Reich-raised W-SS divisions possessed, be it manpower or equipment, seems to have been extra assets for the Wehrmacht or Germany, as all were diverted off the German Army, which had developed the weaponry for itself.

You have now decided to widened the net to include manpower and equipment. How strange.

Ok. Show me how the army had an inherent right to the volksdeutsch populations outside Germany and the foreign volunteers who wanted to fight against Germany’s enemies (pre-war and during the war)? Show me where the army had the inherent right over Hitler to “own” all possible tank/stug production in factories? Did the army rob banks to pay for their panzers and thus “own” them? Who supplied the money to pay for them? Why didn't the army stop Hitler selling tanks/stugs to their allies if the army owned them? Then you will have answered your own questions.

Also, the Waffen SS produced some of the clothing, field equipment and supplies. They had their independent recruit/NCO/Officer training facilities. The army did not have to do 100% of the job (although they did provide some of the training) ! This is a saving for the army and Wehrmacht.

All this tells you why your statement is misleading. You went out of your way to make a sensational statement that tried to diminish the contribution of the Waffen SS in WW2. You sacrificed accuracy to do this – hence misleading.

P.S. Maybe the information in http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkamp ... ervice.htm could assist you for further research. No footnotes unfortunately. There is mention of the SS taking over a Soviet T-34 tank factory – becoming SS Panzerwerk (SS Tank Workshop) to perform repairs and conversions. Use of T-34s by Das Reich, Wiking and Totenkopf.

I suspect that other SS users could be possible.

Regards

Dennis

[Michael Kenny]

The German army used thousands (2000 French alone) of captured tanks. The SS used a fraction of that number. Czech tanks formed a significant part of the force that entered Russia. Captures Russian tanks were used by every German tank formation. It is not possible to get a firm number as not all captured equipment made it to the paperwork. Captured Shermans were also used. In short no nation in WW2 used as many captured vehicles as the Germans.
It had nothing at all to do with the SS and the amount they used (as they were latecomers)pales by comparison to what the rest of the Army used.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Dennis,

After wading through the verbiage, you still seem to be claiming that a tank that would necessarily have been used by the German Army somehow in Waffen-SS hands represents extra armour for the Wehrmacht and Germany.

It is self evidently not the case. Exactly the same tanks would have been used in the field by the German Army had the Waffen-SS not existed. Indeed, the German Army had no problem deploying all the tanks available over 1939-42 before the Waffen-SS got any. Or are you suggesting that, had the Waffen-SS not created armoured units in 1943, Germany would have stored their tanks instead of issuing them to the Army?

So where is this extra armour the creation of Waffen-SS armoured units produced?

Cheers,

Sid.

[dshaday]

Hi Sid

After wading through the verbiage, ....

This clearly tells me that you have not understood the significance of what I have written.

....you still seem to be claiming that a tank that would necessarily have been used by the German Army somehow in Waffen-SS hands represents extra armour for the Wehrmacht and Germany.

You have to take all the points I have made together.

It is self evidently not the case. Exactly the same tanks would have been used in the field by the German Army had the Waffen-SS not existed. Indeed, the German Army had no problem deploying all the tanks available over 1939-42 before the Waffen-SS got any. Or are you suggesting that, had the Waffen-SS not created armoured units in 1943, Germany would have stored their tanks instead of issuing them to the Army?

So where is this extra armour the creation of Waffen-SS armoured units produced?

I have already answered the relevance of this point. It comes down to how you interpret what happened. That is why I have said that your post is misleading - but not simply wrong. See my last few posts.

I have even shown you that the Waffen SS in using captured tanks have, in a strict sense, invalidated your whole argument. But that is not my only purpose. I have provided a more rounded picture of the situation to illustrate the narrowness of your original statement.

I cannot help you any further. I have made my points and others will make up their own minds.

Regards

Dennis

[Michael Kenny]

I have even shown you that the Waffen SS in using captured tanks have, in a strict sense, invalidated your whole argument.

I will say it again. The SS were minor players in the 'captured' area. Compare the make up of 21st PD in 1944

http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/21ger_rec.htm

with that of any SS divison that served there. Make a list of 'captured' vehicles in 21 PD v all the SS divisions in Normandy.
Does this mean that the German Army captured tanks were 'extra' resources or does this advantage only apply to the SS?

Given the Germans offered a bounty (money, food, leave, booze, AT guns) for every T34 or working part of it that they could get ther hands on it is absurd to suggest any useful ones would have been left to rust if the SS were not around to use them.

[dshaday]

Hi

I will say it again. The SS were minor players in the 'captured' area. Compare the make up of 21st PD in 1944

http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/21ger_rec.htm

with that of any SS divison that served there. Make a list of 'captured' vehicles in 21 PD v all the SS divisions in Normandy.
Does this mean that the German Army captured tanks were 'extra' resources or does this advantage only apply to the SS?

Applies to everyone.

Did not realise your post needed a reply, since I took it as a more of a statement (with a rhetorical type question).

Given the Germans offered a bounty (money, food, leave, booze, AT guns) for every T34 or working part of it that they could get ther hands on it is absurd to suggest any useful ones would have been left to rust if the SS were not around to use them.

The tanks were prize tanks and were used by whoever (army/SS/police/Luftwaffe) took them over or captured them in action.

No problems there.

Regards

Dennis

[Michael Kenny]

The tanks were prize tanks and were used by whoever (army/SS/police/Luftwaffe) took them over or captured them in action.

The whole point of offering rewards for captured tanks was to prevent units keeping them for their own use. So valued were these tanks that they were meant to go to central depots to be refurbished and used in an organised manner. Rewards were also offered for working parts (sights etc) to prevent damaged tanks from being stripped for spares. Units were given extra vehicles/AT guns for handing over these captured tanks.

[dshaday]

Hi

The whole point of offering rewards for captured tanks was to prevent units keeping them for their own use. So valued were these tanks that they were meant to go to central depots to be refurbished and used in an organised manner. Rewards were also offered for working parts (sights etc) to prevent damaged tanks from being stripped for spares. Units were given extra vehicles/AT guns for handing over these captured tanks.

Are you saying that the Waffen SS were bound by these same orders to send prize tanks to a central army depot and complied with them? Or is the SS depot just as legitimate?

The link I gave from Actungpanzer specifically mentions a group of T-34s being captured by the Waffen SS, and refurbished in their new SS depot and issued out to their units.

Regards

Dennis

[Karelia]

The German army used thousands (2000 French alone) of captured tanks. The SS used a fraction of that number. Czech tanks formed a significant part of the force that entered Russia. Captures Russian tanks were used by every German tank formation. It is not possible to get a firm number as not all captured equipment made it to the paperwork. Captured Shermans were also used. In short no nation in WW2 used as many captured vehicles as the Germans.
It had nothing at all to do with the SS and the amount they used (as they were latecomers)pales by comparison to what the rest of the Army used.

Just a side note: in total numbers yes, but reletively speaking likely not. E.g. most of the Finnish AFV in WW2 were captured.

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/08/05/finn ... es-in-ww2/
http://www.andreaslarka.net/

[seaburn]

This may be of interest to some - Kurt Meyer and General Eberding discussing the foraging for Panzers and their spare parts - It doesn't add weight to anyone's argument I believe, it just may be of interest. This is from WO208/ 4368 - p386/387 (Tapping File, British National Archives)

[Cult Icon]

Thanks for that.

In Nipe's 'Last Victory in Russia', the author alleges that Sepp Dietrich 're-appropriated' about 1-2 companies worth of panzers and renamed them 'Command panzer' in the books. That is a Waffen SS success, no?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Cult Icon,

Perhaps, but over who?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Rob - wssob2]

Are you saying that the Waffen SS were bound by these same orders to send prize tanks to a central army depot and complied with them? Or is the SS depot just as legitimate?

My understanding is that yes - tank allocations were centrally managed by the OKW. SS depots did not have tanks.

[dshaday]

Hi Rob

Are you saying that the Waffen SS were bound by these same orders to send prize tanks to a central army depot and complied with them? Or is the SS depot just as legitimate?

My understanding is that yes - tank allocations were centrally managed by the OKW. SS depots did not have tanks.

What about the information I posted about earlier in http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkamp ... ervice.htm ?There is mention of the SS taking over a Soviet T-34 tank factory – becoming SS Panzerwerk (SS Tank Workshop) to perform repairs and conversions on captured T-34s. A quantity of which went into Waffen SS service with Das Reich.

Regards

Dennis