Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

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Rob - wssob2
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Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#1

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 Oct 2014, 04:39

Ladies & gentlemen - I thought it might be useful if we split off some of the specific successes into separate topics to better keep track of the discussion. My apologies if anyone thinks this impertinent.

Regarding the 2nd SS Division's capture of Belgrade, which Dennis brought up as an example of a Waffen-SS military success

Sid wrote
Hi Dennis,

The primary reason why Belgrade was taken without a fight was that the Yugoslavs had declared it an open city and decided not to defend it. It was nothing to do with an act of brilliance by the W-SS. They were doing little more than moving into a military vacuum where a German 5th column was already active.

This is a classic example of Waffen-SS myth building. Common sense should lead any observer to question whether it was likely that a single company, however brilliantly led, would suffice to capture an enemy capital without losses if it was actively defended. Full marks to the unit concerned for moving fast and with initiative, but it was no military epic.
Dennis responded
Belgrade was declared an open city a day before the invasion (in peace time) on 5 April. The Germans did not respect the status, and bombed it severely anyway (the bombings were already scheduled in the German attack plans).

The Jugoslavs already had anti-aircraft guns (which should not be in an open city) installed in the city. They fired at the German bombers on day 1. The Jugoslav air-force also intercepted the German bombers over Belgrade. After that, I cannot see how anyone can assume that the Jugoslavs would continue to guarantee an open, undefended city.

In any event, the SS unit was fired on in Belgrade. It took 1,300 armed prisoners and their weapons. These POWs did not end up slipping away to fight in the hills.

I fully agree that this incident only happened through luck, daring, air-raid-chaos and a demoralised Jugoslav army. This kind of success is not what you would typically expect. However, it is factual (not a myth) and arguably a military success.
Sid responded
Hi Dennis,

You write, "After that (Luftwaffe abuse through bombing of Belgrade's Open City status), I cannot see how anyone can assume that the Jugoslavs would continue to guarantee an open, undefended city."

One can never assume anything in war, but the fact of the matter is that Belgrade was undefended. Had any troops in the city opposed the W-SS entry they would have been guilty of a war crime.

If the occupation of Belgrade against no resistance is to be counted as a Waffen-SS military success, then it sets the bar spectacularly low! Given the catastrophic wider situation for the Yugoslav Army and lack of resistance in the city, it was at best a mopping up operation, though the lack of W-SS casualties implies that even this might be a flattering assessment.
Dennis then wrote:
It is exactly because one “can never assume anything in war” that Belgrade’s status as being undefended is in question. The Waffen SS entry was opposed. Belgrade was not defended well.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#2

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 Oct 2014, 04:55

Here's what I know about the event:

April 9, 1941:
Das Reich ordered to send a motorcycle and armored car combat group to seize the bridges on the route to Belgrade.

April 11:
Wehrmacht forces converge on Belgrade. Divisional units reach Albinar despite the swampy terrain. The division's units are supposed to halt at the banks of the Danube River.

But the Deutschland Regiment's motorcycle company commander SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Fritz Klingenberg doesn’t get the message. He captures one or more motor boats, and ferries a squad of men across the Danube into the city of Belgrade, where he sets up two machine-gun posts near the War Ministry right downtown!

The German Military Attaché, Colonel Rudolf Toussaint, approaches Klingenberg, begging that the SS officer take his small squad to protect the Germany Embassy*. Klingenberg gets a better idea, and gets the Attaché to send a message to the Belgrade mayor demanding that he appear at the embassy.

When the Belgrade mayor presents himself at the German Embassy, Klingenberg demands that he immediately surrender the city or otherwise Klingenberg will order the Luftwaffe to bomb Belgrade. (Klingenberg of course doesn’t mention that he has no way of contacting the Luftwaffe, since his squad's radio has malfunctioned) By the early evening the Mayor formally surrenders the city and Klingenberg’s squad has fortunately been reinforced by elements of the 11th Panzer Division.


My observations

1) I'd agree with Dennis that Klingenberg's forcing the surrender of Belgrade is a good example of a Waffen-SS junior officer displaying initiative, courage and bluff. What I like about this particular "Waffen-SS success" its that it is so atypical from the usual "SS-Hauptsturmfuhere So-and-So fought off 10,000 Russians with just his pen-knife and his cammo smock" accounts that are more frequently cited.

2) There's an interesting "more to the story" bit to the account of the capture of the city. Some accounts mention that Toussaint and the rest of the embassy staff were interned by Yugoslav forces at the German Legation building until Klingenberg rescued them. Most accounts of the event omit Toussaint's role in the capture of Belgrade entirely; even Paul Hausser's official Knight's Cross recommendation describes Toussaint as "a Serb messenger".

This omission was perhaps deliberate and an indication of how the Waffen-SS wanted to spin the story as a bit of self-promotion. On April 13, Klingenberg became the first Waffen-SS officer mentioned by name in the Wehrmachts daily Armed Forces Report (Wehrmachtsbericht). So I think Sid's point about the Waffen-SS being a political organization, one that was very much aware of the need to gain accolades and prestige from military successes, is valid.

Toussaint became an Army general and reappears as a footnote at the tail end of WWII. He was responsible for negotiating the withdrawal of German forces from Prague in May 1945. Postwar, he was convicted of war crimes.


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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#3

Post by Sid Guttridge » 28 Oct 2014, 13:19

Hi Dennis,

In some haste.

I will reply in detail later.

Just to say that you got one thing right - the Waffen-SS "took the surrender of the city". And that is about all they did.

The Yugoslavs neither defended the Banat in front of Belgrade, nor the city itself.

The following is a description of events I found in 20 year-old notes:

In the Banat 6th Army only had the Banatski Odred - a sure indication the Yugoslavs considered this ethnically diverse area to be untenable. On 10 April it was ordered to withdraw over the Danube, demolishing the bridges over the river behind it, as soon as German forces crossed the Romanian border. This the Grossdeutschland Motorised Regiment, followed by the 2nd SS Motorised Division, did on the following day. As only one German was shot during the occupation of the Banat, it has been held up as an example of how weak Yugoslav resistance was. In fact, it seems to have been a rare example of a successful Yugoslav pre-emptive withdrawal. However, it brought the Germans to within sight of Belgrade across the river.

With the Germans closing in from several directions, the Yugoslav GHQ decided that Belgrade was also untenable, and on the night of 11/12 April it ordered the destruction of all remaining bridges over the Danube and Sava in the city. The Srem Division, absorbing the Savska Odred and enlisting the capital's mobile anti-aircraft guns as anti-tank weapons, was pulled out of the city to the south-west. Elements of 2nd SS Motorised Division were first to enter the abandoned Yugoslav capital by crossing the Danube in boats, and had their national flag flying over the German Embassy by 1700 on 12 April. 11th Panzer Division, which suffered 42% of all German casualties in the campaign, arrived at 0630 the following day, to find its hard-earned prize already in the hands of the barely-engaged SS.


The capture of Belgrade was undoubtedly a military success, but not one earned by the Johnny-come-lately Waffen-SS. It simply belatedly entered a virtual vacuum and stole the laurels from - you've guessed it - the German Army!

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I have just found the following in a dramatic (and internally contradictory) description of Klingenberg's capture of Belgrade, which seems to sort out the casualty issue:

"The only SS casualty in Belgrade thus far was a private who had fallen and sprained his wrist.The Germans were amazed to find that no one attacked them in the city."

Have you a good, detached description of Klingenberg's activities, that might give a better picture?

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Re: The Military Successes of the Waffen-SS

#4

Post by dshaday » 28 Oct 2014, 16:57

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: Just to say that you got one thing right - the Waffen-SS "took the surrender of the city". And that is about all they did.

The Yugoslavs neither defended the Banat in front of Belgrade, nor the city itself.
Not strictly true. The Yugoslavs defended their city from the air attack using Flak guns and fighter planes. There also appear to have been checkpoints and troops within Belgrade. The article you yourself quote from at the bottom of your post, refers to a 2 hour firefight on the city outskirts with Klingenberg's men and vehicles.

Belgrade was not defended well, but it was not totally abandoned.
Sid Guttridge wrote: P.S. I have just found the following in a dramatic (and internally contradictory) description of Klingenberg's capture of Belgrade, which seems to sort out the casualty issue:

"The only SS casualty in Belgrade thus far was a private who had fallen and sprained his wrist.The Germans were amazed to find that no one attacked them in the city."
If you quote the whole paragraph from that article you will see that the reference to " The Germans were amazed to find that no one attacked them in the city" would be with respect to the city centre. The earlier part of the paragraph clearly refers to a firefight in the city's outskirts. There is no contradiction I can see. I quote:

"Upon entering the outskirts of the city, the Germans became involved in a two-hour running firefight. They finally drove their captured vehicles into the city with many wounded prisoners aboard, including the hapless tourist. Miraculously, none of the SS men were wounded in the fight. They ended up in the city center, all alone and surrounded by a wide-eyed, bewildered population. The only SS casualty in Belgrade thus far was a private who had fallen and sprained his wrist. The Germans were amazed to find that no one attacked them in the city. The civilians went about their daily business as if nothing had happened."

Please note that the injured SS soldier was the "only SS casualty in Belgrade thus far". That is, there was at least one injury in the operation.

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#5

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Oct 2014, 12:03

Hi Dennis,

As I pointed out, the article is "internally contradictory" on a number of points. One is that it both claims Yugoslav resistance and yet also claims no Yugoslav resistance. It is therefore inherently unreliable. That is why I asked you for a better source. Have you got one?

Yes, the Yugoslavs did initially defend Belgrade from the air. However, by the time the Waffen-SS unit in question crossed the border from Romania the campaign was nearly a week old and the Yugoslav Air Force had virtually ceased to exist. The lack of any mention of air interdiction indicates that the Yugoslav Air Force was no longer a factor. Nor did I see any mention of anti-aircraft guns in the article.

One thing seems clear from the article. There were no Waffen-SS combat casualties. You write that the man with the sprained wrist, "was the "only SS casualty in Belgrade thus far". That is, there was at least one injury in the operation". Not according to the article as I read it. I saw no subsequent mention of casualties. One sprained wrist seems to be it. As I said before, the Waffen-SS's precursors suffered higher losses through road accidents during the Anschluss in Austria.

The puffing of the Waffen-SS role at Belgrade is all too typical of both the Nazi propaganda machine and breathless post-war W-SS hero worship.

Is it really plausible that Belgrade, the national capital, would have fallen to less than a dozen men, who suffered one sprained wrist between the lot of them, if the Yugoslavs were intent on defending it?

The Yugoslavs had already decided not to defend Belgrade because German Army pincers were closing behind it. The capture of Belgrade was undoubtedly a military success, but not one earned by the Johnny-come-lately Waffen-SS. It simply belatedly entered a virtual vacuum and stole the laurels from - you've guessed it - the German Army!

Credit to Klingenberg for using his initiative and being first in, but he really was pushing at an open door created by others!

As I said before, to claim the surrender of Belgrade as a "Waffen-SS military success" is to set the bar incredibly low, even if Tsun Tsu does say "To win without fighting is the acme of the military art"!

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#6

Post by dshaday » 01 Nov 2014, 05:17

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:
As I pointed out, the article is "internally contradictory" on a number of points. One is that it both claims Yugoslav resistance and yet also claims no Yugoslav resistance. It is therefore inherently unreliable. That is why I asked you for a better source. Have you got one?
I have already shown you that the text in the article about the resistance is not contradictory. You seem to be rejecting the article with much haste and not much reason.

Sources that I have seen and read regarding Belgrade are scattered. Much of them are readily available on the Internet (articles and books). Accounts vary considerably in what they mention or omit, and what figures are given.

I have seen one thesis article refer in footnotes to a period German newspaper. Maybe you could dig it out and translate it?
Bericht des deutschen Militärattaches, "So fiel Belgrad, " Völkischer Beobachter (Berliner Ausgabe), 17 April 1941.

Sid Guttridge wrote: Yes, the Yugoslavs did initially defend Belgrade from the air. However, by the time the Waffen-SS unit in question crossed the border from Romania the campaign was nearly a week old and the Yugoslav Air Force had virtually ceased to exist. The lack of any mention of air interdiction indicates that the Yugoslav Air Force was no longer a factor. Nor did I see any mention of anti-aircraft guns in the article.
The Flak and air response around Belgrade is mentioned in other books. As an example you can read the AHF thread

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&start=30

Sid Guttridge wrote: One thing seems clear from the article. There were no Waffen-SS combat casualties. You write that the man with the sprained wrist, "was the "only SS casualty in Belgrade thus far". That is, there was at least one injury in the operation". Not according to the article as I read it. I saw no subsequent mention of casualties. One sprained wrist seems to be it. As I said before, the Waffen-SS's precursors suffered higher losses through road accidents during the Anschluss in Austria.
It is exactly because the article does not bother to mention anything further about casualties (after the SS arrived at the city centre) that you cannot deduce anything more and make your statement. Mention is also made in the article of Yugoslav POWs wounded by fire from Yugoslav soldiers directed at the SS. I personally suspect that the injured SS man was the only SS casualty.
Sid Guttridge wrote: The puffing of the Waffen-SS role at Belgrade is all too typical of both the Nazi propaganda machine and breathless post-war W-SS hero worship.
What puffing up are you referring to? If there is a factual error in what I have stated in the post then please demonstrate it. I would prefer fact rather than more opinion.
Sid Guttridge wrote: Is it really plausible that Belgrade, the national capital, would have fallen to less than a dozen men, who suffered one sprained wrist between the lot of them, if the Yugoslavs were intent on defending it?
Why did the Yugoslavs fire on the SS men? Apparently 1300 surrendered (after the Mayor intervened), while an unknown number of soldiers would have chosen to evade the Germans and slip away. Military vehicles (at least 2, as captured by Klingenberg’s men) were in the city. ( I have seen a preliminary (period) press release from an SS war correspondent claiming 1000 prisoners taken by Klingenberg).

Belgrade was not defended well, that is plainly true. Was it abandoned and void of military – plainly not.

Sid Guttridge wrote: The Yugoslavs had already decided not to defend Belgrade because German Army pincers were closing behind it. The capture of Belgrade was undoubtedly a military success, but not one earned by the Johnny-come-lately Waffen-SS. It simply belatedly entered a virtual vacuum and stole the laurels from - you've guessed it - the German Army!
No doubt it was embarrassing for the German Army to lose the race to Belgrade, to the SS.

There certainly was a race. Three German spearhead headed for Belgrade. Two claimed by radio to be the first into Belgrade. Until of course they found out that the SS (from the third spearhead) were already there. Das Reich was also competing with Grossdeutschland (its neighbouring unit) to reach the capital first. (See Hitler's Elite: The SS 1939-45 By Chris McNab, p143 for a description of the “race”).
Sid Guttridge wrote: Credit to Klingenberg for using his initiative and being first in, but he really was pushing at an open door created by others!
The far larger Army had every opportunity to do the same. Yet was not able to do so.
Sid Guttridge wrote:As I said before, to claim the surrender of Belgrade as a "Waffen-SS military success" is to set the bar incredibly low, even if Tsun Tsu does say "To win without fighting is the acme of the military art"!
Let me see. You admit that the Belgrade action is a military success. Yet you also say, in your opinion, that it is of no real value since it is a minor success (bar incredibly low thingy). The German army didn’t think so at the time as it wanted to be the first into Belgrade, and tried hard to do so.

The more I think about what 11 SS men did at Belgrade, the more I am happy that it is a good military success. Using surprise, deception, initiative and bluff over guns and bullets. A good return for the resources committed.

By the way. Are you going to post any examples of Waffen SS success, or continue to ignore the opportunity and still claim that you are unbiased ?


Regards

Dennis

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#7

Post by Cult Icon » 01 Nov 2014, 05:55

I recently finished Spaeter's GD I & II and there is no claim of a competition between regiment GD and DR. The account about these operations indicated that they were not particularly serious affairs as heavy resistance was not expected and did not happen. A part I remember from the book is how they were ordered to fire artillery as an intimidation, rather than a destructive tactic. The rest of the history, as I remember, was more about the civilians and the surrounding environment (including the food IIRC).

However, in the summer of 1942 the book states that there was a friendly race between 24th Panzer to be the first to reach Voronezh.
dshaday wrote: There certainly was a race. Three German spearhead headed for Belgrade. Two claimed by radio to be the first into Belgrade. Until of course they found out that the SS (from the third spearhead) were already there. Das Reich was also competing with Grossdeutschland (its neighbouring unit) to reach the capital first. (See Hitler's Elite: The SS 1939-45 By Chris McNab, p143 for a description of the “race”).
Last edited by Cult Icon on 01 Nov 2014, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#8

Post by GregSingh » 01 Nov 2014, 06:50

When the Belgrade mayor presents himself at the German Embassy, Klingenberg demands that he immediately surrender the city or otherwise Klingenberg will order the Luftwaffe to bomb Belgrade.
That does not have much sense as Belgrade was already heavily bombed during Operation Retribution on 6/7/8 of April.
Estimates of damage varied, but were as high as 25-50% of all buildings, mostly in the city center.

Both German and Yugoslav sources agree that because of that bombing Belgrade ceased to exist as a control/communication center. So the whole race or not race was just a propaganda event to take another country's capital, but not such a military target.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#9

Post by dshaday » 01 Nov 2014, 09:50

Hi GregSingh
GregSingh wrote:
When the Belgrade mayor presents himself at the German Embassy, Klingenberg demands that he immediately surrender the city or otherwise Klingenberg will order the Luftwaffe to bomb Belgrade.
That does not have much sense as Belgrade was already heavily bombed during Operation Retribution on 6/7/8 of April.
Estimates of damage varied, but were as high as 25-50% of all buildings, mostly in the city center.
Belgrade does not seem to have been completely evacuated. There are references to civilians in the city when Klingenberg arrived. So threatening an air strike could still have killed more people and destroyed more buildings. Something the mayor definitely wanted to avoid. As he surrendered the city and is supposed to have instructed the remaining military commanders to surrender their troops.
GregSingh wrote:
Both German and Yugoslav sources agree that because of that bombing Belgrade ceased to exist as a control/communication center. So the whole race or not race was just a propaganda event to take another country's capital, but not such a military target.
The original German invasion plan predicted, and expected, that the Yugoslavs would defend their capital and that several German divisions would be needed to take it. As the spearheads invaded Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav troops eventually fell back toward Belgrade - as the Germans anticipated. However, the Yugoslavs decided not to vigorously defend Belgrade and so its capture ended up being more a symbolic-victory, or prestige, prize. I see this as being different to propaganda.

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#10

Post by dshaday » 01 Nov 2014, 09:55

Hi Cult Icon
Cult Icon wrote:I recently finished Spaeter's GD I & II and there is no claim of a competition between regiment GD and SSLAH. The account about these operations indicated that they were not particularly serious affairs as heavy resistance was not expected and did not happen. A part I remember from the book is how they were ordered to fire artillery as an intimidation, rather than a destructive tactic. The rest of the history, as I remember, was more about the civilians and the surrounding environment (including the food IIRC).
The reference I saw to a competition/race with Grossdeutschland was between them and Das Reich (to which Klingenberg belonged).

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#11

Post by GregSingh » 01 Nov 2014, 10:34

This article from the daily newspaper has a Festung Belgrad in the title, but it is really a OKW communique which mentions Klingenberg. It appeared on the second page.
Festung Belgrad.jpg
Festung Belgrad 1941

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#12

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Nov 2014, 11:49

Hi Dennis,

The article is contradictory. It claims both that there was resistance and that there was no resistance. Your rationalization that the resistance was on the outskirts but not in the city centre seems a reasonable, but the article itself is vaguer.

You write, "Sources that I have seen and read regarding Belgrade are scattered. Much of them are readily available on the Internet (articles and books). Accounts vary considerably in what they mention or omit, and what figures are given." Yet you offer none of them.

I am not sure a contemporary German newspaper article can be regarded as particularly authoritative, given Goebbels' censorship. Anyway I will be interested to see what it says.

I cannot find any reference to Flak and air responses on the day of the surrender of Belgrade in the link you posted. Could you be more specific?

We are agreed on one thing - we both "suspect that the injured SS man was the only SS casualty."

The puffing of the Waffen-SS role in the fall of Belgrade I am referring to is the complete indifference in your account or the article concerned to wider events. The sin is not so much one of factual error, as complete indifference to the wider context that gave the W-SS a walkover in Banat and Belgrade. The W-SS were able to enter Belgrade first at the cost of "one sprained wrist". Doesn't that seem just a little suspicious if the Yugoslavs were really intent on defending their capital? In fact, German Army advances elsewhere had rendered any meaningful defence of Belgrade and the Banat in front of it redundant and the Yugoslavs had already decided not to do so.

Did the Yugoslavs fire on the W-SS men? The only firearms casualties were reportedly Yugoslavs. Therefore the only shooting we can be certain of was done by the W-SS.

However, given that the W-SS reportedly illegally used Yugoslav uniforms and festooned their vehicles with wounded Yugoslavs, it would appear they certainly feared being fired on. Or perhaps, if they were not using them as human shields, they were using the vehicles as makeshift ambulances because they did not fear being fired upon. You choose.

Must go in haste,

Sid.

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#13

Post by Cult Icon » 01 Nov 2014, 16:09

Yes, 'Das Reich'. My typo. AT that time, the GD was only a reinforced mot. regiment (circa 3,800 men plus) and Reich was a division (mot.)
dshaday wrote: The reference I saw to a competition/race with Grossdeutschland was between them and Das Reich (to which Klingenberg belonged).

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#14

Post by dshaday » 01 Nov 2014, 16:15

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:
The article is contradictory. It claims both that there was resistance and that there was no resistance. Your rationalization that the resistance was on the outskirts but not in the city centre seems a reasonable, but the article itself is vaguer.
Sid, the article is not contradictory or vague. I do not see any problem.
Sid Guttridge wrote: You write, "Sources that I have seen and read regarding Belgrade are scattered. Much of them are readily available on the Internet (articles and books). Accounts vary considerably in what they mention or omit, and what figures are given." Yet you offer none of them.
I offer none in particular, because there are many with varying degrees of detail. A quick Internet search, as I have already suggested to you, is your best bet.
Sid Guttridge wrote:I cannot find any reference to Flak and air responses on the day of the surrender of Belgrade in the link you posted. Could you be more specific?
The links has several references to the active Flak and air defence for Belgrade during the air raids. It was posted in response to your initial comment was that you were unaware that Belgrade was defended by Flak units. This links shows you that it was.

You now seemed to have changed your initial question to Flak and air responses on the day Belgrade surrendered. By the time Belgrade surrendered the Flak would presumably have been destroyed by the Luftwaffe. The same is likely for the Yugoslav air force.

Sid Guttridge wrote:
Did the Yugoslavs fire on the W-SS men? The only firearms casualties were reportedly Yugoslavs. Therefore the only shooting we can be certain of was done by the W-SS.
The article you keep referring to clearly says that Yugoslavs from a checkpoint(s) fired on the SS and their prisoners. That is how the Yugoslav prisoners would have been wounded.

No. We cannot say that " Therefore the only shooting we can be certain of was done by the W-SS". You are now making things up.
Sid Guttridge wrote: However, given that the W-SS reportedly illegally used Yugoslav uniforms and festooned their vehicles with wounded Yugoslavs, it would appear they certainly feared being fired on. Or perhaps, if they were not using them as human shields, they were using the vehicles as makeshift ambulances because they did not fear being fired upon. You choose.
Where are you getting the idea that the SS "festooned their vehicles with wounded Yugoslavs"? That is not in the article you referenced or in anything I have read. Nor have I seen anything about makeshift ambulances. Again, I fear you are making stuff up.

Your article does mention the SS using Yugoslav uniforms, as a ruse. This may or may not be illegal depending on what exactly was done while wearing the uniforms. So again, your allegation of illegal use of Yugoslav uniforms is speculation, but possible.

Regards

Dennis

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Re: Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941

#15

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Nov 2014, 17:07

Hi Dennis,

I have always been interested in the flak and air defence of Belgrade with reference to the day the city fell. Indeed, reference to both was first raised by you, not me, in response to my point about the declaration of Belgrade as an "Open City".

As the Waffen-SS unit concerned didn't cross the border (unopposed) from Romania until a day or two before, earlier air events are irrelevant to this thread on alleged "Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941". I am perfectly willing to discard them from the conversation if it upsets you, because I have seen no reference to either on the day in question. (However, should you find reference to action by either Yugoslav aircraft or anti-aircraft guns against the W-SS in Belgrade on the day in question, I would be happy to reopen the issue).

If you believe that "the article is not contradictory or vague", then you presumably accept "The Germans were amazed to find that no one attacked them in the city." at face value. If so, this discussion would be over. But it isn't. You found it necessary earlier to clarify what you thought this meant. If you needed to clarify it, the article was obviously less than crystal clear.

Certainly the article says, the W-SS were fired on from a Yugoslav check point. But we only have the W-SS version of events. By contrast, even by W-SS accounts, the only firearms casualties were Yugoslavs. Hence, "Therefore the only shooting we can be certain of was done by the W-SS". Furthermore, it would appear that this event was not initiated by the Yugoslavs and did not take place in the city because it contradicts, "The Germans were amazed to find that no one attacked them in the city."

"Festooned" or not "festooned", the point remains exactly the same. By this account, the Waffen-SS put wounded Yugoslavs on their vehicles. This implies one of two things - (1) either they were Geneva-Convention-observant and assumed that they were in no danger of coming under fire or (2) they were fearful of coming under fire and were ignoring the Geneva Convention by putting wounded prisoners at further risk. In the extreme interpretation, they might be considered human shields. When added to the reported use of Yugoslav uniforms, it looks more like the W-SS were, on this occasion, playing fast and loose with the Geneva Convention. Indeed, if they weren't using their vehicles as "makeshift ambulances", this looks even more likely. Take your pick.

The more one looks at this, the more Klingenberg's Ritterkreuz seems devalued. This is a pity, as he showed daring and initiative, even if he was pushing at an open door left ajar by the harder fought operations of other Germans elsewhere.

I still owe you some response to your previous post and so will return to it later.

Cheers,

Sid.

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