PzGren Divisions using a different organisation

[Gary Kennedy]

I can't recall if I've asked this before, so apologies if I'm duplicating an old thread, and more worryingly forgotten getting an answer...

The Gliederung charts over on sturmpanzer.com show three Panzer Grenadier Divs that were organised differently from the norm, namely the 3rd, 29th and 60th. These formations all had an unusual organisation for their PzGren Regts, consisting of a Staff Coy, three Bns, an SP Inf Gun Coy and an Atk Coy (with two med and one hvy Pls). The Bns then had four identical Mot Coys, rather than the usual three Rifle and one MG/Hvy Coy format. This raises two questions for me.

First off, why did these Divs adopt a different Regimental structure? From what I can gather all three Divs were reconstituted in the early months of 1943 after being destroyed on the Eastern Front. 3rd and 29th Div went to Italy, while 60th went back to the Russian Front. Was there something in their proposed deployment that meant the MG Coy was thought unnecessary or that a fourth Mot Coy would be more use?

Secondly, does anyone by chance have a list of the governing KStN tables for this type of Mot Regt? I would hazard a guess that the Mot Coys and SP Inf Gun Coy were as for the Panzer Div proper, and suppose that the Staff Coy table was subject to modifications, but it's still pretty much a case of groping in the dark (especially with the possible permutations for the Atk Coy).

Thanks,

Gary

[Leo Niehorster]

Hi Gary,

Source:
BA-MA — RH 12-21/vorläufig 57
i.a.w. OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE
AHA/Ia(I) Nr. 4485/43 g.Kdos. vom 28.08.43

Bez: OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA/Ia Nr. 760/43 g.Kdos. II. Ang. vom 25.02.43.
Betr: "Kriegsgliederung und Liste der gültigen KStN und KAN für 3. und 29. Pz.Gren.Div. und Pz.Gren.Div. Feldherrnhalle".

Anlage 2
...
3.) Gren.Rgt. (mot)
  KStN 1104 01.11.41 — Stb.Gren.Rgt. (mot)
  KStN 1153 01.11.41 — Stbs.Kp.Gren.Rgt. (mot)
           zusätzlich KStN 1124a 01.04.43 — (T.E.) Pi.Zg. (mot)
  KStN 1108 01.11.43 — Stb.Gren.Btls. (mot)
  KStN 1114 01.11.41 — Gren.Kp. (mot)
  KStN 1120a 01.05.43 —Schw.Gesch.Kp. (Sf)(6 s.IG)
  KStN 1144 01.11.41 — Pz.Jäg.Kp. (9 Gesch)(mot Z) ohne 3. Zug
  KStN 1145 01.04.43 —(T.E.) schw.Päz.Jg.Zg. (3 Gesch.)(mot Z)
...

These were the first Panzergrenadier divisions completely raised under the auspices of the General der Panzertruppen. Other symptoms are a completely armored recon battalion, and a self-propelled artillery battalion, as well as a missing antitank battalion — as you can see when compared to the standarized PzGren 43 from 24.09.43. However, that changed by 1944, and all PzGren divisions were supposed to conform to the PzGren 44 model dated 13.08.44, excluding the FHH (former 60.) and of course, GD. Reality had caught up. Just not enough equipment to equip all PzGren Divs this way. They were having enough trouble trying to keep the PzDivs to the authorized organization(s).

I haven't found a scanner yet that also copies microfiche and microfilm, so I do not have a possibility of scanning any material for you.
(My BA-MA Xerox copies are from the days when scanners were something normal mortals could not afford, and things like JPG or PDF were unknown.) I did have some color films made at the time, though.

All the best
Leo

(PS, I do miss the OMEGA button and auto spell check.)

[Gary Kennedy]

Leo,

Thanks very much for that! I thought they were still using 103c, 129 and 115c, rather than shifting over entirely to the 1100 series KStNs. I had also thought they might be using a variation of 1144, so sort of half guessed one.

What sparked my interest again was finding a summary table on sturmpanzer.com for the 3rd PzGren Div, dated 29th Nov43. For the PzGren Regts it works out to 98 officers, 13 officials, 619 NCOs and 2845 men (total 3575, of which 200 were reckoned to be Hiwis). If I put all the figures for the authorised KStNs into a spreadsheet though, of course I don't get those figures. 96 officers, 13 officials, 624 NCOs and 2828 men; trying to take account of all the accursed handwritten amendments makes it 95 officers, 13 officials, 624 NCOs and 2782 men (that's without sperrstellen adjustments as well, which reduce the total of men further). Close but no cigar as they say. Doesn't help that the Gliederung shows 3 LMGs for the Pio Pl rather than the 4 of 1124a and some versions omit the M/C Scout Pl.

I've had some success recently in reconciling the figures from the various individual tables against the few contemporary summaries I've been able to find, but there seems to be too much room for error when it comes to the PzGren units to get an accurate figure. The logical part of my brain reckons it should be easy, but the spreadsheets say different, and we all know spreadsheets never lie!

Gary

[Marcus]

(PS, I do miss the OMEGA button and auto spell check.)

The "Omega" button is something that we will try to add again but we have never had any spell check here, if you have seen one it was handled by your browser, not the forum.

/Marcus

[Christoph Awender]

Hello,

Probably interesting for you...

[Leo Niehorster]

 
Edited to remark: Auto spell checking started to work as I made this post.

Is there (going to be) a skin selection. The light colors of the new version are hard on my old eyes.

Does the "Subscribe" work?   I received no emails indicating you both posted after me on this topic.

For what it is worth, I appreciate the work you do on this site, both behind and in front of the scenes. And still have time for the history bit also.

Cheers
Leo

[Marcus]

I don't know why your spell check does not work here, it works fine here using my normal browsers.

At the moment I don't plan to have more than one skin but we will see what happens in the future.

/Marcus

[Leo Niehorster]

OK, the "Subscribe" feature seems to work again. Just got the notification of my own post at 1:29 AM, 2½ hours later.

Leo
(Why are we doing this here?)

[Gary Kennedy]

Thanks for that Christoph, that's the list of PzGren Regt tables I'm more familiar with, and also indicates the previous organisation wasn't in use for too long. Interesting to see as well that they cut the SP Arty down from a full Bn to a single Bty.

Gary