The heroic resistance of the Hitler Youth at Pichelsdorf bridge, Berlin

[eligius]

Would it be fair to say that, if the objective of the defenders of the Pichelsdorf Bridge (whoever they may have been and whether heroic or not) was to hold it open long enough to carry either a relief column or an escaping Berlin garrison, they appear to have failed?

Cheers,

Sid.

Only if you haven't been reading the thread properly.

@gregsingh:

That's correct. Axmann does not go into detail on the soviet units and there is no map in the book either but then again, he wasn't in command of the HJ at that location. He delegated local control to Gebietsführer Schlünder. If anyone had a map it would be him as it was he who faced the soviets.

There are gaps in the records on both sides and I fear that we will not get a clear picture of what exactly happened. I never thought that we would but who knows?

[Germanicus]

Dear All

22 pages... and counting... it is fascinating to think that more has been written on this and over a length of time, than the HJ stayed at the Bridge.. what I found interesting is that at least, if someone was to 'critique' the Hj at Pitchelsdorf, they would have to look no further than this post. For future reference, it would have far greater detail than anything ever written on this subject and would have a balanced account of the event, which could take on all perspectives. Whether anything absolutely conclusive could be determined, is not for me to judge, however in historical terms, at least a clearer picture has emerged.

Most respectfully

Mark

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Any chance of the Beevor reference. Or maybe a reason why you can't/won't provide it?

Dear Michael..

I find that our friend Germanicus / Mark has posted the relevant parts from Beevor's Berlin. I couldn't find any Axmann references in the bibliography or source notes provided by Beevor. For page 356 where mention of the HJ role at the Pichelsdorfer bridge is found, the source notes doesn't mention anything relevant....What does this mean : " to have escaped...", BA-MA MSg2/3448, p-10 ?

However prodded by you, I thankfully looked around a bit more and found the following :

P - 340 , " Also by 28 April......the German defenders were now reduced to a strip less than five kilometres in width and fifteen in length. It ran from Alexanderplatz in the east to Charlottenburg and the Reichssportsfeld in the west, from where Artur Axmann's Hitler Youth detachments desperately defended the bridges over the Havel."

This doesn't somehow give the impression of a band of pressganged boys having a cosy picnic while Russian formations all around them stretched, yawned, had meals, hot drinks and caught up with their laundry

On P - 385 an interesting information is provided quoting Zhukov (" among the crews killed...." Zhukov, iv , p 272 " ...... "Soviet officers searched the burnt out remains of tanks, in the Havel route, carefully, on orders from Front headquarters." This was done to find the bodies of Hitler's entourage!

He further talks about the Russian reaction to the news that some bunker personalities were trying to escape. They reacted vigorously and sent additional forces at critical breakout points. There was no way the Russians were disregarding the escape possibilities of the top Nazis. There was no way they would have taken the Havel escape route lightly.

[GregSingh]

More information about bridges:

Stößensee bridge
In spite of several mentions of this bridge being destroyed in 1945, it seems it survived intact.

1. There is no record of bridge being rebuilt after 1945 in archives of Senatsverwaltung für Stadtentwicklung und Umwelt http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/c ... 2009085599
2. Berlin's transportation map from late 1945 shows number 58 omnibus using a bridge.
3. List of Berlin's bridges from late 1945 shows it as available for vehicle's use.

I think those who claimed it was destroyed got it mixed with Frey bridge.

Frey bridge
We already know it was damaged. According to Axmann, late on the 1st of May.
There is a fragment of a wittness statement here: http://forst-grunewald.de/?page_id=4412
Unfortunately a link to a full statement is not working.
It says [..a demolition charge attached to a south arch of the bridge went off when hit with a shell..]
Further [..on 27 or 28 of April, Soviet soldiers came into our basement and told: in 5 minutes, all out. For us it meant that we should leave to the west..]

I am skeptical about this statement.
It seems to be given by a civilian living in Wilhelmstadt more than a 1km north-east from the brigde (on Pichelsdorfer Strasse, 600m north of Herrenstrasse). Although date of arrival of Soviet solders confirms what we already know, if he/she left house on 27/28 of April, how did he/she know bridge was destroyed on the 1st of May? Also his/her presence near the bridge to actually see the bridge being hit is questionable. The bridge is not west of Wilhelmstadt.
More likely he/she repeated a story heard from somebody else.

[GregSingh]

Memoirs of the commander of the Soviet 55th Guard Tank Brigade are available here:
http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/dra ... index.html
In Russian, but Google Chrome translation worked for me.
I read the whole chapter about Berlin. Unfortunately not a single word about the bridges.

Although he points out hard time brigade was having with HJ near Olimpic Stadion.
Soviet style narration, but he mentions dates and places, indicates orders received from his boss (7th Guard Tank Corps commander Novikov), it all adds a bit to our knowledge I think.

I used 1943 Berlin map to follow his story. Heerstraße was actually a suburb.
The road was called "An der Heerstraße" east of Stößensee bridge. Heer Straße was the extension west of Frey bridge.

P.S.
Pichelswerder is the name of the island between two bridges.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Adding a bit more.. for whatever its worth..

From O'Donnell's " The Bunker" :

P - 219, " The evening before ( Sunday, April 29) Gen Weidling, during his final visit to the Fuehrerbunker, had shown Hitler a breakout plan.................According to Gen Mohnke, these were the salient points, as he recalled them thirty years later.
Troops still actively defending Berlin were to march, in three battle groups, along both sides of the Heerstrasse........The twin bridges over the Havel River just south of Spandau were to be held ------- by armed Hitlerjugend, at whatever cost ----until all three battle groups had crossed over and left Berlin behind them." ( Highlighting by me).

So firstly the "suicidal" plan involving the HJ at the Pichesldorf bridge, wasnt necessarily a typical cruel and insensitive Nazi / Hitler / SS / Axmann plot.. as was continuously alleged in this thread by some members. It was a legitimate Wehrmacht battle plan, worked out by legitimate military men .. Gen Staff officers to boot !

That this task ( for the HJ) was deemed to be extremely perilous under the circumstances, by men who should know, comes through from the language used again and again by all the military / HJ seniors concerned, in all the narratives posted on this thread.

I have not gone out of my way to invent heroism in an otherwise mundane sunday outing by a bunch of kids please.

[Germanicus]

Dear All.. I have been able to access the link I aplogise for translation....

Greg Singh the translation is as such...... from http://forst-grunewald.de/?page_id=4412

"In the last days of April 1945 the military situation turned to be so: large parts of Berlin were captured." There was now a tubular boilers ranging from Alexanderplatz through the Tiergarten, Charlotte bug and Spandau until after Staaken. He was only 1 km wide over 20 km long and in some places. This should be the retreat road. But; where?

Havel was from 5 road bridges, railway bridge and a footbridge at the lock, crosses. From the South beginning, there was the Frey bridge. This is on the today's Federal Street 5, is what Heer Street. The street was built at the beginning of the 20th century, to keep the growing traffic of the Spandau city centre. There were significant changes, including also electricity straightening, as well as the construction of the railway bridge that had Street same transitions. It was ordered to fortress for technical reasons. Spandau was fortress until 1918. This work was completed in 1907.
In the South the Heer Street was so applied and the Stößensee - and the Frey bridge built.

About the Heer Street rode the tram with 2 lines, which were supplied to our House. The associations of the retreat, together with a large number of civilians, such as "Goldfasane" and other NS sizes, which they had to expect not good by the Soviets. You have gathered at the Olympic Stadium to try the outbreak with their remaining fighting strength. Our city block was about 500-600 metres from the Heer Street located at Pichelsdorfer Street Road station was located immediately to the South of us. Behind the Pichelsdorfer street, made a bend. From there you could see the Heer Street. This had to be prevented absolutely from the German defence forces and it was the front line now. The street railway station was the no man's land.

The bridges were prepared to blow up. The Schulenburg, Charlotten, Stößensee - and the Julius Tower Bridge remained standing. The Eiswerder - and the railway bridge and the footbridge were demolished. At the Frey bridge, there was a special feature. The Sprengstoffpakete [explosives] were attached to the arches. It should be bashed on the southern Arch a grenade into this package and have called the explosion prematurely out. The bridge was now [?] in the water and could be accessed only by pedestrians which some did [?]. The outbreak began about on 27 or 28, April came Soviet soldiers in our basement and ordered: in 5 minutes, all out. It was meant by us, that we should leave Spandau to the West...

Stopped ...Also now on 2. May, which last Commander, the General signed Weidling, surrendered, the resistance and the war was over in Berlin. We headed home and reached our undamaged apartment."

Source:

Life report of a Berliner's from his childhood in the 2nd World War, the post-war period in Berlin and his career until the end of the 20th century

http://Forum-Rheinland.de/Erinnerungen/02.html - http://forum-rheinland.de/erinnerungen/ ... Dictionary

“In den letzten Apriltagen 1945 stellte sich die militärische Lage so da: Weite Teile Berlins waren erobert. Es gab nun einen schlauchartigen Kessel Der vom Alexander Platz durch den Tiergarten, über Charlottenbug und Spandau bis nach Staaken reicht. Er war über 20 km lang und an einigen Stellen nur 1 km breit. Das sollte die Rückzugsstraße sein. Aber; wohin?

Die Havel wurde damals von 5 Straßenbrücken, der Eisenbahnbrücke und einem Fußgängersteg an der Schleuse, überquert.Von Süden anfangend, gab es die Freybrücke. Diese liegt an der heutigen Bundesstr. 5, welche Heerstr. heißt. Die Str. war Anfang des 20. Jahrhunderts angelegt worden, um den zunehmenden Verkehr von der Spandauer Innenstadt fern zu halten. Es gab erhebliche Veränderungen, wozu auch Strombegradigungen gehörten sowie der Neubau der Eisenbahnbrücke, die vorher Straßengleiche Übergänge hatte. Das war aus festungstechnischen Gründen so angeordnet worden. Spandau war bis 1918 Festung. Diese Arbeiten waren 1907 abgeschlossen.

Im Süden wurde also die Heerstr. angelegt und die Stößensee- und die Freybrücke gebaut.

Über die Heerst. fuhr die Straßenbahn mit 2 Linien, die auch an unserem Haus vorbei gingen. Die Rückzugsverbände, gemeinsam mit einer Vielzahl von Zivilpersonen, wie “Goldfasane” und andere NS-Größen, die von den Sowjets nicht Gutes zu erwarten hatten. Sie sammelten sich am Olympiastadion um mit ihrer verbliebenen Kampfkraft den Ausbruch zu versuchen.Unser Häuserblock lag etwa 500 – 600 m von der Heerstr. entfernt in der Pichelsdorfer Str. Unmittelbar südlich von uns befand sich der Straßenbahnhof. Dahinter machte Die Pichelsdorfer Str. einen Knick. Von dort konnte man die Heerstr. einsehen. Das mußte von den deutschen Verteidigungskräften unbedingt verhindert werden und es war da nun die Frontlinie. Der Straßenbahnhof war das Niemandsland.

Die Brücken waren zur Sprengung vorbereitet. Die Schulenburg, Charlotten, Stößensee- und die Juliusturmbrücke blieben stehen. Die Eiswerder- und die Eisenbahnbrücke sowie der Fußgängersteg wurden gesprengt.An der Freybrücke gab es eine Besonderheit. Die Sprengstoffpakete waren an den Brückenbögen befestigt. Es soll am südlichen Brückenbogen eine Granate in dieses Paket eingeschlagen sein und die Explosion vorzeitig hervor gerufen haben. Die Brücke lag nun schief im Wasser und konnte nur noch durch Fußgänger mit einigem turnen passiert werden.Als der Ausbruch nun etwa am 27. oder 28. 4. begann, kamen Sowjetsoldaten in unseren Keller und befahlen: in 5 Minuten, alles raus. Es wurde uns bedeutet, daß wir Spandau nach Westen verlassen sollten……

….Als nun am 2. 5. der letzte Kommandant, der General Weidling, die Kapitulation unterschrieb, hörte der Widerstand auf und der Krieg war in Berlin zu Ende. Wir machten uns auf den Heimweg und erreichten unsere unzerstörte Wohnung.”Quelle:

Lebensbericht eines Berliners von seiner Kindheit im II. Weltkrieg, der Nachkriegszeit in Berlin und sein Werdegang bis zum Ende des 20. Jahrhundert

http://forum-rheinland.de/erinnerungen/02.html – http://forum-rheinland.de/erinnerungen/index.html

[Germanicus]

The Bridge in 1949.. as you can see by the complexities of its structure, this Bridge remained intact which is stated above.

Most respectfully

Mark

[eligius]

@gregsingh: Axmann says that Frey and Stössensee were "partially destroyed by shells". Clearly, the Stössensee bridge cannot be considered to have been completely destroyed in any case because Schlünder's HJ battalion used it to reach the Havelchausee for its withdrawal to Ruhleben on 1/2 May - as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

Heerstrasse is the name of the road both to the west and east of the bridges. This is clearly shown on maps from 1939 and 1945.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Eligius,

OK.

So would it instead be fair to say that, if the objective of the defenders of the Pichelsdorf Bridge (whoever they may have been and whether heroic or not) was to hold it open long enough to carry either a relief column or an escaping Berlin garrison, they appear to have succeeded?

That the relief force either broke in to Berlin over the Pichelsdorf Bridge, or the garrison of Berlin broke out over the Pichelsdorf Bridge?

Cheers,

Sid.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

So would it instead be fair to say that, if the objective of the defenders of the Pichelsdorf Bridge (whoever they may have been and whether heroic or not) was to hold it open long enough to carry either a relief column or an escaping Berlin garrison, they appear to have succeeded?

Hi Sid... So after 22 pages you seriously feel that even now it is a question of " whoever they may have been"?"

Ciao
Sandeep

[Michael Kenny]

Hi Sid... So after 22 pages you seriously feel that even now it is a question of " whoever they may have been"?"

Absolutely.
If anything can be said it is that the initial 'Heroic HJ fighting off impossible odds and never being defeated' version is well and truly busted.
There are still a few hold-outs who are so wedded to that which they believe must be true that they still fail to see the reality.
They were never open to rational debate anyway.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

You seldom seem to respond to the immediate post or subject So gets difficult to catch on really as to what you are actually getting at..

[histan]

It is now possible to reconcile some of the German and Russian sources.

Starting with the Stößensee bridge:

Russian maps show that the Soviet 55th Guard Tank Brigade arrived at the Heerstraße adjacent to the Stößensee bridge on 26/27 April.

We have the following description by a member of the HJ deployed at that location.
"On the night of April 25........My group of 20 Hitler Youths, all from the academy, were sheltering in the basement of a bombed-out apartment house at the Heer Strasse. Our objective was to defend the bridge over the Havel on the east side. Two more Hitler Youth detachments were placed to defend the Charlottenbrücke leading to the centre of Spandau and one group in front of us to protect the Picheldorf bridge. Each of us is equipped with two Panerfaust, just enough to kill two T-34 Russian tanks. We still have two more days to wait before we will see any action. That alone makes you nervous."

and

"So here we are, 20 Hitler Youths with two Panzerfaust each. Russian tanks are still in reserve, we are not equipped for hand-to-hand combat. All of us decided that we must retreat to a better defence line. The majority of the group opted to go back the the centre of Berlin. Three of us were trying to escape to the south. I decided to go with them. Our present location is on the east end of the bridge at Heer Strasse. At this point is the junction of the Stößen see and the north corner of the Grunewald Forrest, a large area of woodland and undergrowth. To cross the Grunewald from north to south is about 8 kilometers. ........ At the peak of the Grunewald we start walking in a direction towards the southwest corner of the forest.

Our first stop is the Treufelsee. Here we are unloading our Panzerfaust, the lake discreetly swallows our weapons. From now on we are deserters, and for a moment we are feeling guilty of forsaking our oath to Adolf Hitler."

My Memories of Berlin: A Young Boy's Amazing Survival Story by Herbert R. Vogt, Herbert R. Vogt Ph.D

GregSingh points out that the commander of the Soviet 55th Guard Tank Brigade makes no mention of the Stößensee bridge. Although he points out hard time brigade was having with HJ near Olimpic Stadion.

This suggests that:
The bridge was not important to him - for example he had not been tasked with capturing it.
Any opposition posed by the HJ at the bridge was not worthy of note - consistent with the eyewitness account given above.

He is likely to have mentioned if his brigade had been tasked with capturing the bridge but had been beaten back by the HJ "holding the bridge against all the odds"

Now we can try to reconcile the German and Russian evidence for the Frey Bridge.

Regards

John

[eligius]

Those of you who insist on returning to the word "heroic" are causing the thread to become difficult to follow and I have to seriously question your true motives. The thread has moved on since the initial outrage in some quarters about the use of the term and to clutter the thread with further indignation seems counter-productive.

Those who do not believe that the HJ was there for a specific reason and that these boys carried out the task assigned to them until events overtook them should also consider whether there is anything meaningful to gain by continuing to argue the point. The thread has become more interesting due to the additions of those with a research perspective and I look forward to the discovery of more information.