Skorzeny in Argentina

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sandeepmukherjee196
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Skorzeny in Argentina

#1

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 03 Jan 2015, 19:50

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Bob,

Just to reinforce the last question, did you ever write up the result of your researches?

Some original publication along the lines of what you outlined is badly needed.

You mentioned Skorzeny being out of shape after two years of beer swilling in Berlin. The same phenomenon was observable when he was in Argentina after the war. He seems to have spent almost his entire time there schmoozing with Peron's social set and left no imprint on the Argentine army at all. Contrast him with Adolf Galland, who did real work and had an enduring impact on the Argentine air force.

Cheers,

Sid.
Hi Sid....

What exactly was Skorzeny's role in the Argentine army ? As a security advisor wasn't he more into the Perons' personal security and police procedures ?

Ciao
Sandeep

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#2

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Jan 2015, 20:31

Hi Sandeep,

You ask, "What exactly was Skorzeny's role in the Argentine army?"

This is a good question.

One can easily enough see what Galland and assorted German aero-engineers did for the Argentines. (See the books El General de los Cazas. Adolf Galland en Argentina, 1948-1955 (http://librogallandenargentina.blogspot ... os%20Cazas) and Las Alas de Peron, from which some images (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22La ... d=0CCAQsAQ) are available on the internet. That is why I mentioned the former by comparison.

However, it is almost impossible to discern anything that Skorzeny did for them.

Indeed, beyond being pretty certain he was there in 1949, we cannot even be sure how long he was even in Argentina. Anecdotally, he travelled back and forth from Spain more than once and was in Egypt several times over 1953-55, at which point Peron was overthrown.

The only things that are clear are that he enjoyed the high life in Peron's social circle in 1949 and he was politically active in exiled Nazi circles.

If he was active as a security advisor concerned with the Perons' personal security and police procedures, I would like to know more.

It seems to me that, to Peron, Skorzeny was more ornamental. Peron was a personal admirer of Mussolini. He was in Italy when war broke out in 1939 and he claimed to have been in a main square in Rome when Mussolini announced his declaration of war to the crowd in June 1940. Peron's political philosophy seems to have owed much to Mussolini's corporatism. On the other hand, he admired the Germans militarily and had visited some of their conquests in 1940. Skorzeny covered both in one figure - the rescuer of Mussolini and confidant of Hitler. Skorzeny's attendance probably boosted Peron's already well developed ego.

I, too, would very much like to know whether Skorzeny did anything productive in the military field while in Argentina, but there seems little evidence of it.

There would seem to be a vacancy for a full, detached, biography of Skorzeny, as his post war years are often obscure. Indeed, books on his wartime years seem to be dominated by his own estimation of himself - Commando Extraordinary, "The Most Dangerous Man in Europe", etc., etc.

Good luck,

Sid.


dshaday
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#3

Post by dshaday » 06 Jan 2015, 19:18

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Sandeep,

You ask, "What exactly was Skorzeny's role in the Argentine army?"

This is a good question. ....
In the body of that long reply (which I have edited out) you admit that you do not know his role, but want to know more. That is normally fine.

Yet this did not stop you making wild guesses and putting a negative-spin on what he appears to have done over there. As if this is some proof.
Especially about Galland's substantial airforce project in Argentina and Skorzeny.

Regards

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#4

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Jan 2015, 19:54

Hi Dennis,

It is clear what Galland did in Argentina.

It is clear what the German aeroengineers did in Argentina.

We know this because the Argentines have recorded their activities in a number of books.

However, we can't even be sure when, how long, or how often Skorzeny was even in Argentina, let alone what he did. There is clearly no obstacle to writing about him in Argentina, because his wartime memoirs were published in Spanish by the Circulo Militar of the officers club. Yet nothing about what he did in Argentina.

We do know that Skorzeny was for a time part of Peron's social circle (photos of a tuxedoed Skorzeny exist) and we do know that he was engaged in exiled Nazi politics from Yuki Goni's researches. However, he appears to have left no professional military impact in the way Galland and the aeroengineers did.

There are various unsubstantiated stories, such as that Skorzeny saved Eva Peron from an assassination attempt, or that he taught the Argentine military German torture techniques, but I see no reason to give credence to either without evidence.

In the absence of anything hard, I offered my opinion, which was, "It seems to me that, to Peron, Skorzeny was more ornamental. Peron was a personal admirer of Mussolini. He was in Italy when war broke out in 1939 and he claimed to have been in a main square in Rome when Mussolini announced his declaration of war to the crowd in June 1940. Peron's political philosophy seems to have owed much to Mussolini's corporatism. On the other hand, he admired the Germans militarily and had visited some of their conquests in 1940. Skorzeny covered both in one figure - the rescuer of Mussolini and confidant of Hitler. Skorzeny's attendance probably boosted Peron's already well developed ego."

You can choose not to accept my opinion and, hard though it will be, I guess I will just have to learn to live with that.

Have you anything substantive yourself on Skorzeny in Argentina that might add some substance to what little is known of his activities there?

Cheers,

Sid.

dshaday
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#5

Post by dshaday » 06 Jan 2015, 20:24

Sid Guttridge wrote:
You can choose not to accept my opinion and, hard though it will be, I guess I will just have to learn to live with that.

Have you anything substantive yourself on Skorzeny in Argentina that might add some substance to what little is known of his activities there?
Good to hear that you can live with the pain !

I cannot offer anything new myself, as I was hoping to learn something from reading the thread.
So far, I see that you have managed to again repeat the same opinions, without adding anything new.

Regards

Dennis

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#6

Post by Sid Guttridge » 07 Jan 2015, 13:02

Hi Dennis,

Indeed, I have repeated the same opinions. And why not?

I will happily modify or retract them if or when you or anyone else comes up with any substantive evidence that indicates Skorzeny left any lasting professional military legacy in Argentina, like Galland did, but until tell then, I see no reason to modify them.

Cheers,

Sid.

dshaday
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#7

Post by dshaday » 09 Jan 2015, 13:52

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: Indeed, I have repeated the same opinions. And why not?
Since you asked, I will tell you.

You are more that entitled to your personal opinions, but why is there the need to keep publically repeating them when they are unsourced.
That is why.

After all, as you have said in the " Waffen-SS Military Success - Belgrade 1941", thread 4 Nov 2014
This is the Axis History Forum, not the Axis Unsupported Opinion Forum
Sid Guttridge wrote: I will happily modify or retract them if or when you or anyone else comes up with any substantive evidence that indicates Skorzeny left any lasting professional military legacy in Argentina, like Galland did, but until tell then, I see no reason to modify them.
For all you know Skorzeny in Argentina is a rich tourist cashing in on his past fame. Having nothing to do with the type of task Gallant was working on. Not even “working” for the Argentine Army. This is the “normal” possibility.

Isn’t the onus on you to source an argument when you publically post it, especially when the options you suggest are outside the norm ?

As you have already posted on "The heroic resistance of the Hitler Youth at Pichelsdorf bridge, Berlin", thread 7 Jan2015, regarding the making of exceptional claims of bravery by HJ defenders:
This inevitably leads to conflict with those who believe that any proposition for exceptionality over normalcy is the one that must be proven, not the other way around.
Regards

Dennis

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#8

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 09 Jan 2015, 14:08

Hi Sid. ... As far as I know, Skorzeny didn't have any role to play in the Argentine army....the way Galland had to play with the airforce. But maybe there are things that I am not aware of on this subject.

Since you made a disparaging comment on Skorzeny's effectiveness with the army, I presumed that you have information on this subject that has eluded me.

One may or may not like Skorzeny. One may be derisive of his role as a commando in Europe. But should one compulsively believe the worst about him whether there is a basis or not?

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#9

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2015, 16:09

Hi Sandeep,

You will have to be more specific in writing, "Since you made a disparaging comment on Skorzeny's effectiveness with the army....."

To what do you refer?

A mystified Sid.

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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#10

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2015, 16:40

Hi Dennis,

You write. "You are more that entitled to your personal opinions,..." Why, thank you!

You go on, "but why is there the need to keep publically repeating them when they are unsourced"? There is often a need to repeat opinions, because they tend to get buried by non-informative posts, such as yours, which have here introduced absolutely nothing by way of facts or sources.

As it stands, I am the only poster in this thread to have introduced anything even resembling a fact. This puts me in the unique position, at present, of being the only one in a position to offer anything by way of even a remotely informed opinion. However, I cannot make you like it.

You write, "For all you know Skorzeny in Argentina is a rich tourist cashing in on his past fame. Having nothing to do with the type of task Gallant was working on. Not even “working” for the Argentine Army. This is the “normal” possibility."

You phrase the opening more harshly than I would have put it, but you are essentially right! The default position here, due to a lack of hard information, is that Skorzeny did nothing much by way of military activity in Argentina. This contrasts strongly with the activities of a true military professional, Adolf Galland, whose activities are well recorded and who is still much celebrated in Argentina for his work there.

I am not clear exactly what you are disagreeing with, regarding my opinion about Skorzeny's presence, which was, at the risk of incurring your further disapproval:

"In the absence of anything hard, I offered my opinion, which was, "It seems to me that, to Peron, Skorzeny was more ornamental. Peron was a personal admirer of Mussolini. He was in Italy when war broke out in 1939 and he claimed to have been in a main square in Rome when Mussolini announced his declaration of war to the crowd in June 1940. Peron's political philosophy seems to have owed much to Mussolini's corporatism. On the other hand, he admired the Germans militarily and had visited some of their conquests in 1940. Skorzeny covered both in one figure - the rescuer of Mussolini and confidant of Hitler. Skorzeny's attendance probably boosted Peron's already well developed ego."

Cheers,

Sid.

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Marcus
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#11

Post by Marcus » 09 Jan 2015, 16:49

A post containing little but personal remarks was removed. The topic is the role played by Skorzeny in Argentina, please stay on it.

/Marcus

dshaday
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#12

Post by dshaday » 09 Jan 2015, 17:56

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: You go on, "but why is there the need to keep publically repeating them when they are unsourced"? There is often a need to repeat opinions, because they tend to get buried by non-informative posts, such as yours, which have here introduced absolutely nothing by way of facts or sources.
The facts are that you admit being unaware of Skorzeny’s purpose in Argentina and that you would like to know the truth. These are the only facts surrounded by non-relevant material in your posts. The only sources you have given are unrelated to Skorzeny. You even admit everything else in your post is opinion.
Sid Guttridge wrote: As it stands, I am the only poster in this thread to have introduced anything even resembling a fact. This puts me in the unique position, at present, of being the only one in a position to offer anything by way of even a remotely informed opinion. However, I cannot make you like it.
When does unsourced opinion resemble fact ?
I would like to read relevant facts and not unfounded speculation.
Sid Guttridge wrote: You write, "For all you know Skorzeny in Argentina is a rich tourist cashing in on his past fame. Having nothing to do with the type of task Gallant was working on. Not even “working” for the Argentine Army. This is the “normal” possibility."

You phrase the opening more harshly than I would have put it, but you are essentially right! The default position here, due to a lack of hard information, is that Skorzeny did nothing much by way of military activity in Argentina. This contrasts strongly with the activities of a true military professional, Adolf Galland, whose activities are well recorded and who is still much celebrated in Argentina for his work there.
That is not logical. You have not even shown that Skorzeny was in Argentina on military business. The defult position for Skorzeny is – high profile Tourist.
Everything else about Galland is, until then, totally irrelevant to Skorzeny.
Sid Guttridge wrote: I am not clear exactly what you are disagreeing with, regarding my opinion about Skorzeny's presence, which was, at the risk of incurring your further disapproval:
I would like to see posts that are actually on topic about Skorzeny’s role in the Argentine Army. What you keep posting is gossip, and irrelevant to the topic. I suppose I am just highlighting your lack of relevant facts.

Hope that helps.

All the best

Dennis

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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#13

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 Jan 2015, 19:14

Hi Dennis,

In the absence of hard facts, circumstantial information is the best we have available. As nobody was supplying the hard facts, I felt it incumbent to supply some circumstantial information. I make no apology for this.

The only things we can currently be reasonably certain of are that while in Argentina Skorzeny was part of Peron's social circle and that he was involved with other exiled Nazis.

However, various other things are asserted, such as that he had a security role, that he trained the Argentine military in torture techniques, that he saved Eva Peron from an assassination attempt, etc., etc.

These imply that he was there in a professional capacity. However, the evidence for this is lacking.

By comparison, the evidence that other Germans were present in a professional capacity is strong - i.e for Adolf Galland and the German aeroengineers. This helps us establish what Skorzeny's public profile would likely be in Argentina had he been there in a professional capacity. If you feel this makes him look bad, I am sorry, but I don't see why it should.

Now, have you got something by way of hard facts, or even circumstantial information to offer?

No? I rather thought not.

Cheers,

Sid

dshaday
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#14

Post by dshaday » 09 Jan 2015, 19:45

Hi Sid
Sid Guttridge wrote: In the absence of hard facts, circumstantial information is the best we have available. As nobody was supplying the hard facts, I felt it incumbent to supply some circumstantial information. I make no apology for this.
I fully understand that you are making guesses. No apologies necessary.
Sid Guttridge wrote: However, various other things are asserted, such as that he had a security role, that he trained the Argentine military in torture techniques, that he saved Eva Peron from an assassination attempt, etc., etc.

These imply that he was there in a professional capacity. However, the evidence for this is lacking.
I see. Good you didn't repeat all that unfounded gossip.
Sid Guttridge wrote: By comparison, the evidence that other Germans were present in a professional capacity is strong - i.e for Adolf Galland and the German aeroengineers. This helps us establish what Skorzeny's public profile would likely be in Argentina had he been there in a professional capacity.
You first have to show Skorzeny's official capacity - if there was one- and if it was significant (like Galland's). Which is the topic of this post.
Sid Guttridge wrote: Now, have you got something by way of hard facts, or even circumstantial information to offer?

No? I rather thought not.
I have already told you about my knowledge base regarding Skorzeny/Argentina. Why are you surprised?

I began reading this post to learn something. So far I have seen nothing worthwhile.

Regards

Dennis

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Marcus
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Re: Skorzeny in Argentina

#15

Post by Marcus » 09 Jan 2015, 20:29

Drop the personal commentary and get back on topic.

/Marcus

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