SS Unit Formations & Order of Battle

[Arduino]

Hi all, first time on this forum and I must say I'm very impressed with the wealth of knowledge on here and I can't wait to learn alot from everyone.

I have some specific questions regarding the SS Divisions from 1944 onward. I'll just make a list, feel free to answer any of the questions listed in any order: I know these are somewhat odd questions so any info you can give me is greatly appreciated

1. How many men typically made up a Gruppe? What rank typically lead a gruppe (gruppenfuhrer)? And were they're assistant Gruppe leaders like Americans had Assistant Squad Leaders?
2. How many Gruppen made up a Zuge? What rank typically lead a Zuge, was it always an officer or could have it been an NCO of some kind, if so what particular ranks?
3. Within a Zuge what was the Stab (command staff) made up of? Was their a CO, platoon sergeant and 3-5 gruppenfuhrers, like the Americans had?
4. How many Zuge made up a Kompanie, and what was the Kompaniestab made up of ? CO, XO, Speiss, what else? Where their Intelligence officers, Supply officers, etc like the Americans had?
5. What was the specific name and abbreviation for a Kompanie commander?
6. What was name/translation for a Commanding Officer and Executive Officer? (I'm looking for military term - not simply Kompanie kommandant)
7. How many snipers we're typically assigned to 1 kompanie?
8. How many Maschinegewehr we're assigned to each kompanie? Was there 1 per gruppe?
9. How did weapon assignment work throughout a kompanie? StG 44, k98, mp-40, etc(Americans typically had a Thompson SMG in charge of a squad, Officers had their choice of M1 Garand or Thompson)

I'm sure I'll think of more but this is a good start for now.

[John Hilly]

Answer to question nr. 5:

Regular Company commander was Kompanie Chef.
A provisional Commander was Kompanie Führer.

With best, J-P

[John Hilly]

Here's the compositions of an infantry company and MG Coy 1939/1940 in German.

Infanterie-Regiment

Drei Infanterie-Bataillonen mit je drei Schützen- (Infanterie-) und einer Maschinengewehrkompanie.
Die Kompanien sind im Regiment durchnumeriert, somit hatte das
I. Bataillon: 1. – 3. (Infanterie-) und 4. (MG-) Kompanie
II. Bataillon: 5. – 7. (Infanterie-) und 8. (MG-) Kompanie
III. Bataillon: 9. – 11. (Infanterie-) und 12. (MG-) Kompanie

4.2. Schützenkompanie (gesamt 12 lMG, 3 Panzerbüchsen, 3 leichte GrW)
- Kompaniechef
- Kompanietrupp mit Kompanietruppführer, Meldern, Sanitätspersonal
- Drei Schützenzüge mit jeweils
- Zugführer
- Zugtrupp mit Zugtruppführer, Meldern, Sanitätssoldat
- vier Schützengruppen mit je einem leichten MG
- Granatwerfertrupp mit einem leichten Granwerfer 5 cm
- 1 – 2 Infanterie-karren (bespannt)
- Panzerbüchsentrupp mit drei Panzerbüchsen
- Gefechtstroß mit Kompaniefeldwebel (Spieß), Waffen- und Geräteunteroffizier, Feldküche
- Verpflegungstroß I und II mit Fourier-unteroffizier
- Gepäcktroß mit Rechnungsführer, Kompaniehandwerkern

4.3. Maschinengewehr-Kompanie (Gesamt 12 sMG, 6 sGrW)
- Kompaniechef
- Kompanietrupp mit Kompanietruppführer, Beobachtungs-Unteroffizier,
2 Richtkreis-Unteroffizieren, Meldern
- Nachrichtenstaffel mit Fernsprechtrupp, später auch Funktrupp
- Drei schwere Maschinengewehr-Züge mit jeweils
- Zugführer
- zwei Gruppen mit je 2 SMG
- schwerer Grantwerferzug
- Zugführer
- Zugtrupp
- drei Gruppen mit je 2 schweren Granatwerfer 8 cm
(der Granatwerfer 8 cm wurde bei Kriegsbeginn als schwerer Granatwerfer bezeichnet. Nach Einführung des Granatwerfer 12 cm galt der 8 cm Granatwerfer als mittlerer Granatwerfer).
- Gefechtstroß mit Kompaniefeldwebel (Spieß), Waffen- und Geräteunteroffizier, Futtermeister, Beschlagschmied, Feldküche
- Verpflegungstroß I und II mit Fourier-unteroffizier
- Gepäcktroß mit Rechnungsführer, Kompaniehandwerkern

Source: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zus ... giment.htm

With best, J-P

[Arduino]

Thank you for your input John! Keep the responses coming everyone

[Rob - wssob2]

1. How many men typically made up a Gruppe?

It depends what Third Reich military or paramilitary formation you are referring to.

What rank typically lead a gruppe (gruppenfuhrer)?

Roughly, yes - e.g. Standartenführer leads a Standarte. However I think this was more more theoretical than actual.

And were they're assistant Gruppe leaders like Americans had Assistant Squad Leaders?

The question doesn't make sense because you're comparing pomagranates to wrenches. Did General-SS group leaders have assistants? Yes, but the weren't E-5's.

2. How many Gruppen made up a Zuge?

All of this becomes a lot more clear if we get rid of the fetish for German words. How many squads are in a platoon?

What rank typically lead a Zuge, was it always an officer or could have it been an NCO of some kind, if so what particular ranks?

Depends on the unit and the branch of service.

3. Within a Zuge what was the Stab (command staff) made up of? Was their a CO, platoon sergeant and 3-5 gruppenfuhrers, like the Americans had?

There is no staff command in a platoon. In the Waffen-SS, a "Gruppenführer" is the equivalent to a General, so no , there aren't three Generals under a platoon sergeant.

4. How many Zuge made up a Kompanie,

Again, use English. How many platoons make up a company?

and what was the Kompaniestab made up of ? CO, XO, Speiss, what else? Where their Intelligence officers, Supply officers, etc like the Americans had?

5. What was the specific name and abbreviation for a Kompanie commander?
6. What was name/translation for a Commanding Officer and Executive Officer? (I'm looking for military term - not simply Kompanie kommandant)

Read The Handbook on German Military Forces - TM-E 30-451 at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/

7. How many snipers we're typically assigned to 1 kompanie?

AFAIK none. Never heard of snipers being assigned to an Army (Heer) or SS company as a standard component. (This is the Wehrmacht, not Rambo!)

8. How many Maschinegewehr we're assigned to each kompanie? Was there 1 per gruppe?

It will depend on the year, the branch of service, the specific unit and the circumstances. Note also the existence of heavy weapons companies in the Wehrmacht/SS TOE.

9. How did weapon assignment work throughout a kompanie? StG 44, k98, mp-40, etc(Americans typically had a Thompson SMG in charge of a squad, Officers had their choice of M1 Garand or Thompson)

It will depend on the year, the branch of service, the specific unit and the circumstances. Lot's of Kar98's.

StG's didn't appear till 1944, in miniscule amounts.

[Arduino]

At the top of my post i listed that I was referring to Waffen-SS and from 1944-1945, as you can see below: I guess I could be even more specific and referring to 1.SS Panzer-Division

"have some specific questions regarding the SS Divisions from 1944 onward. I'll just make a list, feel free to answer any of the questions listed in any order: I know these are somewhat odd questions so any info you can give me is greatly appreciated"

Also, yes, how many platoons make up a company, how many squads make up a platoon

And no sir, I believe you are incorrect. The rank of general your referring to is SS-Gruppenfuhrer. Gruppenfuhrer on its own is different from SS-Grupenfuhrer. The 'SS' in front designates that whatever follows is indeed a rank.

[Gary Kennedy]

Basically the SS used the same organisational tables (KStN) as the Army for the most part; there were a few unique ones issued for SS units but not for the building blocks of unit organisation. Most of what you're asking in terms of subunit and unit structure is available on the net. The link given above for the 1945 US Handbook on German Forces is a good one, also for a selection of KStN tables click the ww2daybyday forum in the masthead. If you're feeling adventurous you could also google up bayonetstrength.150m.com which is mine own effort on WW2 organisation.

In short there were three Squads per Platoon, under a small HQ, and three Platoons per Company. A Rifle Company was completed by a HQ, Trains, and dependent upon the Company type and timeframe, a support weapons element, ranging from a Section of HMGs or medium mortars, to a full Platoon mixing both. Late war Coy Tns and increasingly Sp wpns were removed from Coy org and consolidated elsewhere within the Battalion. Three Rifle Coys formed a Battalion, which was completed by a MG/Heavy Company and a Battalion HQ. Format of the MG/Hvy Coy depended upon the role of the Bn and varied greatly between standard Grenadier and Panzer Grenadiers for example. The Hvy Coy of a mid-44 Gren Bn for example was authorised HMG, 8-cm and 12-cm Mortar Platoons. Motorised and Armoured PzGren Bns underwent perhaps three reorganisations between late 1943 and the end of the war. Bn HQ included the command staff, Signals Pl and Bn Tns. Later on PzGren Bns had all their Coy and Bn Tns and Maint Dets concentrated into a separate Supply Coy.

KStNs indicated authorised weapons issue. For example a 9-man (Type44) Gren Squad was authorised 2 SMGs, 6 rifles and one LMG (plus pistol for the gunner). Pl HQ consisted of the commander (junior officer or senior NCO) with pistol and SMG, 2 runners, 2 drivers for the horse drawn transport, (all with rifles) and a stretcher-bearer (with pistol). Generally rifles aren't broken down by subtype, the indicative issue was one scoped rifle and one semi-automatic per Squad for a Gren Coy. The reality would be a bit more varied of course.

By the by, equivalent Tables of Organization for a 1944 US Inf Bn assumed a standard Rifle Pl would have 1 Carbine (Pl commander), three BARs (one per Squad), 36 M1 rifles and 1 M1903 scoped rifle. SMGs were 'officially' absent from authorised issues until Jun44 when six were allowed per Rifle Coy to be issued as required. Again, the reality varied a little of course.

Gary

[Arduino]

Basically the SS used the same organisational tables (KStN) as the Army for the most part; there were a few unique ones issued for SS units but not for the building blocks of unit organisation. Most of what you're asking in terms of subunit and unit structure is available on the net. The link given above for the 1945 US Handbook on German Forces is a good one, also for a selection of KStN tables click the ww2daybyday forum in the masthead. If you're feeling adventurous you could also google up bayonetstrength.150m.com which is mine own effort on WW2 organisation.

In short there were three Squads per Platoon, under a small HQ, and three Platoons per Company. A Rifle Company was completed by a HQ, Trains, and dependent upon the Company type and timeframe, a support weapons element, ranging from a Section of HMGs or medium mortars, to a full Platoon mixing both. Late war Coy Tns and increasingly Sp wpns were removed from Coy org and consolidated elsewhere within the Battalion. Three Rifle Coys formed a Battalion, which was completed by a MG/Heavy Company and a Battalion HQ. Format of the MG/Hvy Coy depended upon the role of the Bn and varied greatly between standard Grenadier and Panzer Grenadiers for example. The Hvy Coy of a mid-44 Gren Bn for example was authorised HMG, 8-cm and 12-cm Mortar Platoons. Motorised and Armoured PzGren Bns underwent perhaps three reorganisations between late 1943 and the end of the war. Bn HQ included the command staff, Signals Pl and Bn Tns. Later on PzGren Bns had all their Coy and Bn Tns and Maint Dets concentrated into a separate Supply Coy.

KStNs indicated authorised weapons issue. For example a 9-man (Type44) Gren Squad was authorised 2 SMGs, 6 rifles and one LMG (plus pistol for the gunner). Pl HQ consisted of the commander (junior officer or senior NCO) with pistol and SMG, 2 runners, 2 drivers for the horse drawn transport, (all with rifles) and a stretcher-bearer (with pistol). Generally rifles aren't broken down by subtype, the indicative issue was one scoped rifle and one semi-automatic per Squad for a Gren Coy. The reality would be a bit more varied of course.

By the by, equivalent Tables of Organization for a 1944 US Inf Bn assumed a standard Rifle Pl would have 1 Carbine (Pl commander), three BARs (one per Squad), 36 M1 rifles and 1 M1903 scoped rifle. SMGs were 'officially' absent from authorised issues until Jun44 when six were allowed per Rifle Coy to be issued as required. Again, the reality varied a little of course.

Gary

Gary, this was extremely informative. I will be sure to check out those links you posted as well. Can't thank you enough.

[Rob - wssob2]

Basically the SS used the same organisational tables (KStN) as the Army for the most part; there were a few unique ones issued for SS units but not for the building blocks of unit organisation.

Thank you Gary - my point exactly.

I'd also point out that there is no single standard Waffen-SS TOE or unit organization because the SS formed different types of units and the units themselves changed in structure/organization during WWII. The LSSAH, for example, started off as a brigade with motorized infantry battalions and ended up a division with armor and panzergrenadier regiments.

The structure of a mountain division is similar to, but not exact, to a infantry division. A type-1939 infantry division is organized differntly than a type 1944 division. A 1943 panzergrenadier battalion looks very different than an 1941 motorized infantry battalion which looks different from a 1944 Fusilier battalion. The Waffen-SS had each of these variants.

German military nomenclature uses the term "ableitung" which can be translated into English as "section" or "battalion" but a Reconnaissance Ableitung is structured very differenty than a Heavy Tank Ableitung (and in English we may refer to the "12th SS Reconnaisance Section" vs. the "501st SS Heavy Tank Battalion" but both are technically ableitungen)

In addition, units can be the same designation, but vary in composition. The 6th and 7th SS Divisions were both mountain divisions, but the 7th SS had a bicycle and cavalry sections, but the 6th SS did not.

Depending on circumstances, a gruppe, for example, can have 8-12 soldiers, and a platoon can have 3-4 sections. Then it gets complicated - is the unit organized into a company, a troop, or a column? (An infantry unit may have a company, a military police unit a troop, supply troops a column)

I've never heard of a squad commander being referred to a "Gruppenführer," which, as I pointed out, would be the SS equivalent of calling him "General"

Weapon issue has a complexity of its own - the 15th SS Division's fusilier battalion wasn't necessarily equipped with the same weapons as the 31st SS Section, although theoretically at least both would contain more automatic weapons.

Here's an example of the Second Battalion, 26th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment's weapons for the Feb 1945 Gran bridgehead fighting for 42 NCOs and 351 men:

• 76 Handguns
• 5 Signal Pistols
• 192 Carbines
• 4 Rifle grenade launchers
• 7 semi-automatic rifles.
• 22 submachine guns
• 34 MP-44 assault rifles
• 27 MG-42 machine guns
• 5 MG-34 machine guns
• 6 machine guns, other manufacture
• 3 AT guns
• 4 120mm mortars
• 61 panzerfausts
• 9 magnetic hollow charger mines


(source: Days of Battle: Armored Operations North of the River Danube, Hungary, 1944-45 - Nortbert Számvéber - Helion and Co. - 2013)

For detailed breakdowns of weapons issue, you should look at the books by James Dugdale

[Christoph Awender]

Hello,

Not much time at the Moment but a few additions corrections:
The correct term is "Abteilung"
Snipers were organised in a Special section - makeshift at battalion level.
The term Gruppenführer is totally correct and has nothing to do with the rank .. it is the position of the leader of a Gruppe. The course that
must be attended for this was named "Gruppenführer-Kurs".

/Christoph

[Rob - wssob2]

The correct term is "Abteilung"

My apologies for the error! when I type fast, I am the best German mispeller in the world.

Snipers were organised in a Special section - makeshift at battalion level.

Just curious - does that then imply that sniper scopes were not issued to regular infantry units?

The term Gruppenführer is totally correct and has nothing to do with the rank .. it is the position of the leader of a Gruppe. The course that
must be attended for this was named "Gruppenführer-Kurs"

I do stand my position that I've never read of the term "Gruppenführer" used in context of a Waffen-SS squad. Of course there are Gruppenführers, and gruppenführers, I suppose!

[Christoph Awender]

Hello Rob,

Scopes were issued to "regular infantry Units" but the snipers itself were recommended by the lower ranks up to Company commander and then selcetd by the battalion or Regiment to be par of the sniper Group of the battalion or Regiment depending on the tactical or personnel Situation. These snipers were then sent into Action by orders from the battalion/Regiment.

Gruppenführer was the normal term also i the WSS. Attached a document with personnel Information where you can see that Uscha. van Putten and Köhn served as "Gruppenführer".
http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/0053.jpg

/Christoph