I am curious to know exactly what these mistakes are...(drumroll new thread)Soldiers of destruction is good but full of mistakes
Looking forward to Yerger's book's on Totenkopf later this year
Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
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Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
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Re: Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
Sydnor's book was debunked back in 2006 in this thread -
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7&start=15
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Re: Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
Thanks John for posting the link.
So here’s the first piece of errata:. Sydnor wrote on p.60, footnote 45, citing pp.194 & 197 of BAMA, III SS, 41/8:
Reading the actual Order of the Day for Nov 20, 1939, it seems that SS-Obersturmführer Max Werner was subject to 5 days arrest (solitary confinement?), relieved of command and sent to the Concentration Camp Inspectorate under Oberführer Glücks for deviating from his assignment as convoy commander and having his men go AWOL during a business trip to Frankfurt.
However, despite the mistaken promotion of the unfortunate Werner, this bit of evidence is still valid IMO to Sydnor’s point that Eicke was cracking down on disciplinary infractions in his unit in the fall of 1939.
Here’s a second piece of errata from Mark Yerger:
Here’s not really an “errata” but an allegation:
We then get into more “casting aspersions” territory:
Education: Emory & Henry College, bachelor’s degree, 1965; Vanderbilt University, master’s degree, 1967, doctorate, 1971.
Career:
Professor, Longwood College, 1972-80;
Assistant to the president, Hampden-Sydney College, 1980-82;
Speechwriter, Gov. Charles S. Robb, 1982-84;
President, Emory & Henry College, 1984-92;
President, Commonwealth Public Broadcasting/Community Idea Stations, 1992-2006
Expert witness for U.S. Department of Justice in Nazi war criminal cases, 1981-2006
Executive director, Virginia Holocaust Museum, July 2013 to present
I think the last two career points are in contrast to the allegation that Syndor has “disappear(ed) from the research circles”
Here’s a link to the Virginia Holocaust Museum, of which Sydnor is executive director:
http://www.va-holocaust.com/
In September of 2014 he gave a lecture The Holocaust Seventy Years On: Transforming Memory into History - info at http://www.vahistorical.org/attend-even ... ansforming
Here’s another link to one of his speaking engagements:
http://www.longwood.edu/2014releases_55773.htm
He’s an adjunct professor at the University of Richmond:
http://spcs.richmond.edu/contact/people/oshcsydno/
And he’s donated archival material to the USHMM:
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn502035
I think I’m beginning to see what the “problem” is....
So here’s the first piece of errata:. Sydnor wrote on p.60, footnote 45, citing pp.194 & 197 of BAMA, III SS, 41/8:
Sydney mistranslated "SS-O.Stuf” as "SS-Obersturmbannführer” (equivalent to a Lt. Col.) instead of "SS-Obersturmführer” (1st Lieutenant) and assumed the officer was commander of the signals battalion and not a signals column....On November 20, Eicke announced in an order of the day that he was relieving from duty SS-Obersturmbannführer Werner, commander of the signals battalion, and transferring him to the inspectorate at Oranienburg for disobeying specific orders applying to the use of motor vehicles on convoy duty.”
Reading the actual Order of the Day for Nov 20, 1939, it seems that SS-Obersturmführer Max Werner was subject to 5 days arrest (solitary confinement?), relieved of command and sent to the Concentration Camp Inspectorate under Oberführer Glücks for deviating from his assignment as convoy commander and having his men go AWOL during a business trip to Frankfurt.
However, despite the mistaken promotion of the unfortunate Werner, this bit of evidence is still valid IMO to Sydnor’s point that Eicke was cracking down on disciplinary infractions in his unit in the fall of 1939.
Here’s a second piece of errata from Mark Yerger:
Sydnor’s comment in footnote 10 of p.219 states:Sydnor has many major mistakes mistakes in his book, some of which are hard to understand. He states Baum as a Diamnonds winner when he was a Swords holder, rather basic knowledge information aside from the fact he had direct contact with Baum.
Even if Baum didn’t win the Diamonds to garnish his Knight’s Cross, their absence doesn’t detract from Syndor’s points that Baum a) was a brilliant field commander b) was a favorite of Eicke’s and c) was extremely highly-decorated. It seems picayune to call this out as a “hard to understand” major error of scholarship, especially when Syndor is being otherwise so laudatory.”…The battle of the Demyansk pocket and the condition of the SSTK units in the cauldron also were discussed in an interview between the writer and Herr Otto Baum in Stetten bei Hechingen, West Germany, on July 7, 1972, and recorded in an memorandum Herr Baum prepared for the author on October 15, 1973 (hereafter cited as Baum interview and/or Baum memorandum.) A battalion commander in SSTK during the struggle for the Demyansk pocket, Baum subsequently became one of the most brilliant field commanders of the Waffen-SS…One of Eicke’s favorite subordinates, Baum also became one of the most highly decorated German soldiers of the Second World War, earning the Ritterkreutz with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds.”
Here’s not really an “errata” but an allegation:
We’ll need more data to flesh that one out.Army units he confuses corps with divisions, etc.
Again, we’ll need more info on what data has been corrected by Nipe and who the other scholars are.The book's data has been corrected by Nipe and others
We then get into more “casting aspersions” territory:
Syndor was apparently a commentator on the History Channel in the 1990-2000’s, but I couldn’t find online any links to specific documentaries or programs.but it seems to be Sydnor's only effort in 20+ years as its advertised as a subline whenever he speaks on the History Channel.
Do we have any evidence that Sydnor lied about his research work?Sydnor claims in his Acknowledgements to have spent 9 months in Freiburg at the Bundesarchiv studying such documents.
I believe that Georg has uncovered a good example of how academics with limited background of their subject matter will write a thesis that turns into a book and then they disappear from the SS research scene.
Those additional error's in Sydnor's book that Mark Yerger points out were certainly interesting. Does anyone have any opinions about why Sydnor is still regarded as an authority on the subject after this apparantly error-ridden book was published nearly 30 years ago? The version I have was published in 1977 and I believe that it is still being reprinted. Were the errors corrected in the reprints?
So a little biographical info is appropriate here:As I mentioned before about the academics like Sydnor who publish something about the Waffen-SS and then disappear from the research circles, I would like to contrast that with other people without academic degrees who are subject matter experts and continue to publish well-researched books while adding to the information in earlier publications. One such example is Mark Yerger.
Education: Emory & Henry College, bachelor’s degree, 1965; Vanderbilt University, master’s degree, 1967, doctorate, 1971.
Career:
Professor, Longwood College, 1972-80;
Assistant to the president, Hampden-Sydney College, 1980-82;
Speechwriter, Gov. Charles S. Robb, 1982-84;
President, Emory & Henry College, 1984-92;
President, Commonwealth Public Broadcasting/Community Idea Stations, 1992-2006
Expert witness for U.S. Department of Justice in Nazi war criminal cases, 1981-2006
Executive director, Virginia Holocaust Museum, July 2013 to present
I think the last two career points are in contrast to the allegation that Syndor has “disappear(ed) from the research circles”
Here’s a link to the Virginia Holocaust Museum, of which Sydnor is executive director:
http://www.va-holocaust.com/
In September of 2014 he gave a lecture The Holocaust Seventy Years On: Transforming Memory into History - info at http://www.vahistorical.org/attend-even ... ansforming
Here’s another link to one of his speaking engagements:
http://www.longwood.edu/2014releases_55773.htm
He’s an adjunct professor at the University of Richmond:
http://spcs.richmond.edu/contact/people/oshcsydno/
And he’s donated archival material to the USHMM:
http://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn502035
I think I’m beginning to see what the “problem” is....
Re: Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
I used to know a man named Richard Gardner (haven't seen him for many years) who was a friend of Charles Sydnor. He called him "Charlie Sydnor." They were classmates in graduate school. Richard Gardner founded The Battery Press, a publisher of military books, mostly unit histories.
Gardner recommended "Soldiers of Destruction" as a book that showed the connection between Totenkopf and the crimes of the Third Reich.
Richard Gardner told me his own dissertation as a graduate student was on Franz Halder as Chief of the General Staff. He interviewed Halder while in the U.S. Army stationed in West Germany.
Gardner recommended "Soldiers of Destruction" as a book that showed the connection between Totenkopf and the crimes of the Third Reich.
Richard Gardner told me his own dissertation as a graduate student was on Franz Halder as Chief of the General Staff. He interviewed Halder while in the U.S. Army stationed in West Germany.
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Re: Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
Thanks for your reply Kar43.
Battery Press has some interesting titles - see more at http://www.batterypress.com
Battery Press has some interesting titles - see more at http://www.batterypress.com
Re: Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
Battery Press stocked German Army divisional histories and Richard Gardner didn't see anything wrong with studying the German Army. However, Gardner wouldn't sell Waffen SS books, the Munin Verlag publications. He told me that Waffen SS fans would come to The Battery Press office and "talk that SS Shocktrooper horses***, and I would throw them out."Rob - wssob2 wrote:Thanks for your reply Kar43.
Battery Press has some interesting titles - see more at http://www.batterypress.com
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Re: Soldiers of Errata? Mistakes in Charles Sydnor's book
Hi Rob,
Nobody would deny that any history book needs critical reading, correction and updating.
The problem is that some critics cannot tell the difference between errors that are of substance and others that are not.
John P. Moore's definition of "debunking" appears to fall into the latter category.
In this connection, I would draw your attention to my reply (19 Jun 2008 09:49) to a critical "review" by John P. Moore of another book, The Myth of the Eastern Front: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=120
In it I opened:
"Much of the criticism of The Myth of the Eastern Front is about as pertinent as complaining about poor cooking on the Titanic - it might sometimes be true, but it misses the important point entirely.
Thank you for drawing my attention to your “review” of The Myth of the Eastern Front on Amazon. It is not, in fact, a review, just a single paragraph of selectively edited quotations, nit-picking and misrepresentation that correctly notes a small number of minor factual inaccuracies that do not affect the central arguments put forward in the book, but seriously misrepresents other aspects of the book without ever addressing its main points. Even where accurate, not a single point in your “review” stands up as a substantial objection in terms of the book’s central propositions."
Little appears to have changed.
Cheers,
Sid.
Nobody would deny that any history book needs critical reading, correction and updating.
The problem is that some critics cannot tell the difference between errors that are of substance and others that are not.
John P. Moore's definition of "debunking" appears to fall into the latter category.
In this connection, I would draw your attention to my reply (19 Jun 2008 09:49) to a critical "review" by John P. Moore of another book, The Myth of the Eastern Front: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &start=120
In it I opened:
"Much of the criticism of The Myth of the Eastern Front is about as pertinent as complaining about poor cooking on the Titanic - it might sometimes be true, but it misses the important point entirely.
Thank you for drawing my attention to your “review” of The Myth of the Eastern Front on Amazon. It is not, in fact, a review, just a single paragraph of selectively edited quotations, nit-picking and misrepresentation that correctly notes a small number of minor factual inaccuracies that do not affect the central arguments put forward in the book, but seriously misrepresents other aspects of the book without ever addressing its main points. Even where accurate, not a single point in your “review” stands up as a substantial objection in terms of the book’s central propositions."
Little appears to have changed.
Cheers,
Sid.