Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#31

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Oct 2015, 19:00

The Soviet tank losses were exceptionally high in the summer of 1943, Ukraine (which was also peak Ostheer combat power). The soviet tank loss ratio in many battles in the west of Kiev, Ukraine drops dramatically from October 1943 onward. Literally from, say, 4-6 to 1 to around 2 to 1 or 1 to 1.
offizier1916 wrote:
or e.g. kursk and the operations after kursk from aug-oktober 1943. russian losses are nearly triple as high as german losses, despite the fact that they just were in defense and exactly knew where the wehrmacht would attack. the russian losses were horrible. now even historians like Knopp admit, that the russians probably lose even more than the known stats in that time span.
In the AGN sector, the soviet tank loss ratios were very high- the panzers in this sector were not many and deployed in the defense.

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#32

Post by Cult Icon » 11 Oct 2015, 19:44

With rules of thumb (based on years experience studying the subject), I would say that the german tank kills 1943-1945 are usually the highest in 1. successful Panzer Raids (hit and run attacks) 2. Fighting set-piece massed armored operations well (Soviet style or Allied operations like Goodwood) 3. Asymmetrical style operational level counterstrikes (like OP Winterreise and Waltraut, Jan 1944). 4. Fighting with high levels of close air support.

Units, like the 502/503 Tiger- that frequently played major roles in such would have the opportunity high tank kill claims.

The German tank kills claims and own losses were the worst when : 1. Attacking infantry or combined arms groups with strong AT support 2. hasty counterattacks 3. when suffering lack of combined arms support, poor service, poor fuel/ammunition supply or in poor organization (like the Panzer brigade 10 or Pz Brigades or late 1944/1945 era units)


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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#33

Post by pintere » 11 Oct 2015, 20:35

Michael Kenny wrote:
pintere wrote: Only one squadron of the Fort Garry Horse was in action at Rots that day. I think they lost around ten tanks.
You think.
Where did you see this information?
pintere wrote: Even when you take that into account, it does not change the fact of the heavy personnel losses of the 1st Hussars (their heaviest of the war), 25-30 destroyed tanks for minimal German losses and another allied tank graveyard.
You think.

Do you know what the designation 'repairable in over 24 hours means?
Do you believe it means 'destroyed'?


By the way what were the 'minimal' German losses?
How many German tanks were damaged so we can make a like-for-like comparison?
Firstly, I read it in a history of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps. I don't have it with me right now, but I could probably recover it from the library within a couple of days. I'll leave that battle until then.

Now, for the 1st Hussars battle. NEWSFLASH! I was going to write a longer tome about my logic with the 1st Hussars losses, but there is no need. Author Stephen Napier, in his book on the armoured campaign in Normandy, also has identified 37 as the total losses for the day. According to him, the 1st Hussars lost 28 Shermans on that day (including 3 Fireflies). I have reposted the link below.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=OJEbCg ... on&f=false

Finally, let us not forget that after the battle the Germans controlled the terrain. Various sources confirm that only 2 (some say 4) tanks from B Squadron returned from the battlefield (out of 21). C squadron, like B squadron, would have had to leave their 11-13 knocked out tanks behind them on the battlefield. So I think it's fair to say that these should be considered total losses.

http://steel-chariots.22web.org/le-m-p5.htm

As for German losses, we get contradictory reports. Some say 3. Norbert Számvéber's book on SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 records 5 total losses. Either way, it doesn't really compare to Canadian losses that day.

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#34

Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Oct 2015, 21:27

pintere wrote:
Author Stephen Napier, in his book on the armoured campaign in Normandy, also has identified 37 as the total losses for the day.
37 is not the number of 'total losses'. It is the total of destroyed tanks and tanks needed repairs that will take more than 24 hours. Of the 37 some will have been repaired and placed back in the tank pool.

pintere wrote: As for German losses, we get contradictory reports. Some say 3. Norbert Számvéber's book on SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 records 5 total losses. Either way, it doesn't really compare to Canadian losses that day.
Szamveber is usIng 12th SS original reports. He records (page 56) 6 Pz IV (not 5) destroyed. The number of damaged tanks is not given The Canadian tank total that you say is 'destroyed' is no such thing. It is a total of all tanks destroyed and those needing repairs that take over 24 hours. It can only be compared to the German total of destroyed and damaged tanks. The regimental accounts also show that several tanks came a cropper to mines and trying to navigate the village. One fell into a cellar and another tipped.

. In order to prevent them from getting bottled up in the narrow streets, the leading tanks were ordered to break down a wall and find a new exit cutting through the corner of the town. One quickly made a hole, but a second one made a hole in what proved to be a house and dropped through into the cellar.

War Diary:

some of our tanks had only run over mines so that many of these will be recovered.
pintere wrote:Finally, let us not forget that after the battle the Germans controlled the terrain.
So they could make 100% correct claims?


8 kp claimed 10 Shermans and 4 'General Lee's'.
9 kp claimed 7 Shermans

The bottom line is the oft repeated claim of 37 1st Hussars tanks destroyed for 3-6 Pz IV is wrong.

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#35

Post by pintere » 12 Oct 2015, 02:57

Michael Kenny wrote:37 is not the number of 'total losses'. It is the total of destroyed tanks and tanks needed repairs that will take more than 24 hours. Of the 37 some will have been repaired and placed back in the tank pool.
By total I meant total for all the 2nd CAB, not total losses. Just a misunderstanding, no big deal.
Michael Kenny wrote:Szamveber is usIng 12th SS original reports. He records (page 56) 6 Pz IV (not 5) destroyed. The number of damaged tanks is not given The Canadian tank total that you say is 'destroyed' is no such thing. It is a total of all tanks destroyed and those needing repairs that take over 24 hours. It can only be compared to the German total of destroyed and damaged tanks. The regimental accounts also show that several tanks came a cropper to mines and trying to navigate the village. One fell into a cellar and another tipped.

. In order to prevent them from getting bottled up in the narrow streets, the leading tanks were ordered to break down a wall and find a new exit cutting through the corner of the town. One quickly made a hole, but a second one made a hole in what proved to be a house and dropped through into the cellar.

War Diary:

some of our tanks had only run over mines so that many of these will be recovered.
OK, first point. On page 65 of Szamveber's book he records the total losses of the II./SS-Panzer-Regiment 12 from D-Day to the 19th of June. He records the 8. Kompanie losing six tanks. On 17 June he records as a total loss one tank by the kompanie (pg. 62), and another total loss on 7 June (pg. 41 & 45). So we have a contradiction. I'm sure you'll agree it's likely there was either a miscounting on 11 June, or it included the tank lost from a few days earlier as well. That is why I said they lost five tanks on that day. Even if you don't buy it, the difference is really unimportant.

Now for the second. You mention the other accidents made by the battalion that day. We must remember that the 2nd CAB also listed 13 tanks damaged but ready for action within 24 hours. Since repairing a blown tank track is relatively quick to do when not under fire, I think it's safe to say that most (if not all) these mishaps would be included in the totals of tanks ready in 24 hours rather than the other category. Even if a few were included in the latter it would have only a negligible impact on the total.

I think there's good reason to think almost all the 28 tanks the 1st Hussars had in the latter category were total losses. The tank wrecks were in German territory after the end of battle, beyond the reach of allied recovery vehicles.
Michael Kenny wrote:So they could make 100% correct claims?


8 kp claimed 10 Shermans and 4 'General Lee's'.
9 kp claimed 7 Shermans

The bottom line is the oft repeated claim of 37 1st Hussars tanks destroyed for 3-6 Pz IV is wrong.
We both know tank ID was dubious for both sides. Even in this very battle, the Canadians were convinced they had destroyed a number of Panther tanks even though no Panthers were on the German side during this fight.

My bottom line is that, regardless of precisely how many tanks the Canadians left on the battlefield on 11 June (which we have good reason to believe were largely total losses), it was a fairly one-sided action as far as tank losses go and a disaster for the 1st Hussars. The battle is a perfect example of what we see in many such Normandy skirmishes. Even when you peel away all the misinformation about these engagements, the historical core we have still shows a tank battle where the Germans undeniably come out on top. You have correctly pointed out the misinformation about the battle of le Mesnil-Patry, but the truth that is left still has a significant German tactical victory.

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#36

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Oct 2015, 04:13

pintere wrote: The battle is a perfect example of what we see in many such Normandy skirmishes.
Indeed it is.
See Norrey-en-Bessin on 9/06/44 and Lingevres on 14/06/44 for information on Panther tank attacks being wiped out with ease by the defenders.
See Le Haut du Bosq-Cheux on 27/06/44 where and overconfident group of 7 Panther tanks from I./3 Pz Rgt 2nd Pz Div. came to grief at the hands of a determined group of infantry.
See also the afternoon attack into Villers Bocage by 1 kp SS 101 where they lost 5 Tigers in a matter on minutes without inflicting any tank casualties on the defenders and were forced to retire.

Attacking in Normandy was a very risky business!

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#37

Post by Miles Krogfus » 17 Oct 2015, 20:50

In the 2nd Panzer Division, Lt. Werner Raum during July 1943 was commander of Panzer IV #811 as 1st zug leader, 8th company, with 35 kills reached on 15 August. In that month he led a Combat Group of the 6th company until killed on 29 August with 45 shot. Info. supplied me by Adolf Seinecke, 8th Company leader from 12 to 17 July,1943.

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#38

Post by pintere » 04 Nov 2015, 03:30

I just finished reading Jung's history of the GD tank regiment and Tieke's history of the II. SS-Pz.Korps. I would like to add a few names to the list.

Emil Rossmann - 9
Werner Neumeyer - 10
Ewald Menzel (gunner) - 16
Josef Rampel - 17
Hans-Georg Risch - 18
Emil Luithle - 70+

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#39

Post by Howling Wolf » 15 Nov 2015, 04:46

Hardigan wrote:And here my list of "Panzer Gunner Aces". It's difficult to make this list complete because of a lot of topscorers their score is unknown.
Herbertz, the gunner of Karl Körner, was probably the highest scoring Ace if he was with him all the time, what he presumable was in that very short period of service.
Reichel was also an outstanding gunner with a unknown high score in an amazing short time of service with Brommann.
Knispel's score as gunner was according to his crew 60-70.(source : Otto Carius)



Panzer Gunner Aces



- Knispel, Kurt, Feldw. (s.PzAbt.503) (Tiger II) (DKiG,PKA"25") 60+
Knispel as a gunner started shooting up tanks on the Eastern Front in MarK IV's with the short barreled 75mm gun.This is the tank he was in when his unit first saw combat on on 22 June,1941 and following at the battle of Bialystok.His unit later received Mark IV's with the longer HV 75MM cannon in which he was still a gunner.He was transported back to Germany and trained with the new Tiger I tanks in Januaury of 1943.He then went back to the Eastern Front still as a gunner but in a Tiger I not a Tiger II and as a member of SPA 503.In May of 1944 the new Tiger II's started to trickle in and he was also a gunner in his first Konigstiger.Knispel did not command a tank until the last 6 months of the war and died on 29 April 1945 after knocking out his 168th and final tank.Source : Feldwebel Kurt Knispel

I think if you take into account the often inflated German tank kill totals he would be more closer to around 80-90 with most of those as a gunner.Here is an interesting link which helps to give an understanding of tank kills using total write-offs and tanks which were salvageable and put back into service :

http://www.panzerworld.com/german-tank-kill-claims

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#40

Post by pintere » 15 Nov 2015, 15:34

Howling Wolf wrote:I think if you take into account the often inflated German tank kill totals he would be more closer to around 80-90 with most of those as a gunner.Here is an interesting link which helps to give an understanding of tank kills using total write-offs and tanks which were salvageable and put back into service :

http://www.panzerworld.com/german-tank-kill-claims
Of course. However since it is impossible to do a thorough check on each and every ace's claim, all this thread is for is reporting these claims for comparative purposes. There were A LOT of German tank commanders and gunners who said they destroyed a lot of tanks, and even though it's quite true their "scores" were probably more than they got in reality, when you take that into account it's still a respectable amount.

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#41

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 12 Dec 2015, 02:14

Gentlemen,

Oberfeldwebel Gustav Neuhaus (DKiG holder) had destroyed 15 Soviet panzers in a single action on Feb.27,1945 while serving with Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 509. He was commanding a Tiger II. His final score is unknown.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#42

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 10 Aug 2016, 00:44

Gentlemen,

Do you have any information about the scores of Ernst Beloch of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 509 and Hermann Seidel of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503? Both were German Cross in Gold winners. It was said that in one German forum that Ernst Beloch was killed on December of 1944 after having 103 kills against enemy tanks. His rank was Feldwebel.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#43

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 30 Aug 2016, 09:13

Gentlemen,

It is known that Rolf Gebhardt had destroyed many Soviet tanks as a panzer commander of Panzer-Abteilung 507. How many in total is unknown. He was a holder of the DKiG and the Ritterkreuz. Page 197 from the book called "The Combat History of Schwere Panzer-Ablteilung 507," has a congratulatory letter to Feldwebel Rolf Gebhardt (8,May 1944) which says:

"It was with great pleasure that I discovered that you knocked out 20 enemy tanks in the difficult fighting around Tarnopol and Brody.
As a result you personal bravery and steadfast devotion to duty, you have inflicted heavy losses on the enemy and thereby contributed to the successful defensive fighting in those sectors.
I wish to extent my personal thanks to you for your exemplary performance and am sending you a small package for your personal use."

Heil Hitler!
/signed/ Raus
General der Panzertruppe

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#44

Post by Edward L. Hsiao » 14 Sep 2016, 00:37

Gentlemen,

Can anyone find any information about SS-Oberscharfuhrer Hans-Joachim Holtorf's kill score over Soviet tanks and AFVs please. Holtorf was with SS-Panzer Regiment 3 of 3 SS-Panzer Division "Totenkopf" where he won his German Cross in Gold on Nov.14,1943 as a panzer commander. His rank as the time of his award was SS-Unterscharfuhrer. He was killed in Hungary in March of 1945. He had lots of time and opportunities to score heavy over Soviet tanks and AFVs.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

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Re: Panzer kills for 'Panzer Commander Aces' and 'Panzer Gunner Aces'

#45

Post by pintere » 17 Sep 2016, 21:22

I have a few names to add to the list from my research on Stug units. (All are minimums)

Leutnant Steinmann - 16 tanks
Unteroffizier Maibohm - 12 tanks
Both were from Stug Abteilung 226, source is Kurowski (Sturmgeschutze Vor) pg. 83

Oberleutnant Brockschmidt - 9 tanks (Kurowski 88) in Stug Abteilung 232

Hauptmann Magold - 14 tanks
Unteroffizier Bor - 8 tanks
Both from GD Stug Abteilung, source is Kurowski (Sturmgeschutze Vor) pg. 190-191

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