Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

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Howling Wolf
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Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#1

Post by Howling Wolf » 15 Nov 2015, 18:12

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503's company's were pulled out of operations on the Eastern Front after Western France became a combat zone on 6 June 1944.They were to be refitted with the new Königstiger's.The command group of the battalion staff as well as 1.company received the new Königstiger's. 2. and 3. company was to use the Tiger 1 temporarily until more Königstiger's could be delivered to them as they had just gotten into full production. The battalion had 3 weeks to "break in" the new "King" Tiger's and train with them before being sent by rail on 26/27 June to Houdan and Dreux,about 70 kilometers west of Paris, arriving and unloaded from the rail on 2/3 July.The company's moved in several nighttime road marches by night and took cover in wooded area's by day because of relentless Allied fighter/bomber daytime sorties. Their destination east of Caen.

Alfred Rubbel :"The war there [France] forced us into another dimension that we had not yet known and in which we were inferior.We were crushed in the battle by an unimaginable material superiority against which courage and experience at the front were unable to prevail."

I will start to post AAR's of Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France with upcoming posts in which members with knowledge of British, Canadian, and American AAR's can see if they match the German accounts.

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#2

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 00:16

Follow -up on Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France.
On 9 July 1944 the Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 was brought forward into into the main lines a few kilometers behind the main battle line of resistance in the eastern Orne bridgehead near Emieville.On 11 July at 0530 hours,after a short but heavy artillery barrage British tanks and Canadian infantry penetrated German lines between Cuerville and Colombelles and taken the high ground north of the factory complex at Colombelles.An immediate counterattack by Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503's 3.Company from Giberville to the North pushed back the Allies to the original lines without German losses.11 Sherman tanks and 4 anti-tank guns were destroyed and 2 undamaged Sherman tanks were captured and moved to the rear.
Last edited by Dieter Zinke on 16 Nov 2015, 01:36, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: The abbreviation SPA is absolutely unusual. Customarily we utilise "s.Pz.Abt.". The technical terminology facilitates the handling with the stuff in whole the world for the researchers


Howling Wolf
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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#3

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 06:15

Understood.I will use the proper terminology in the future

Michael Kenny
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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#4

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Nov 2015, 06:51

33 Armoured Brigade's last light numbers show 9 Shermans, 1 Firefly and 1 Stuart as 'KO/not fit in 24 hours. This is a max of 10 Shermans. . For the 503 claim to be correct 3 Shermans have to appear from thin air and no other German troops got any tanks and all the 10 Shermans were actually knocked out and left on the battlefield. They 10 'written off' Shermans could include tanks that were damaged and sent back to the rear for major repair.
As for 'no German losses' this is highly unlikely given that far more that sPzAbt 503 were involved.

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#5

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 10:56

Proof please including German/British/Canadian sources that mesh and I will reply.Not just one[British] but all please.Thank You.
Last edited by Howling Wolf on 16 Nov 2015, 11:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#6

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 11:08

If one was counting all of the Shermans that were sent back for repair you would need to exclude them from the battlefield and that would be a LARGE number and that is not even considering the Shermans who's crews jumped out of perfectly functioning tanks because they were "scared".

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#7

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 11:29

Michael Kenny[/quote] wrote:33 Armoured Brigade's last light numbers show 9 Shermans, 1 Firefly and 1 Stuart as 'KO/not fit in 24 hours. This is a max of 10 Shermans. . For the 503 claim to be correct 3 Shermans have to appear from thin air and no other German troops got any tanks and all the 10 Shermans were actually knocked out and left on the battlefield. They 10 'written off' Shermans could include tanks that were damaged and sent back to the rear for major repair.
As for 'no German losses' this is highly unlikely given that far more that sPzAbt 503 were involved.
Why ??

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#8

Post by Alanmccoubrey » 16 Nov 2015, 11:57

Howling Wolf wrote:Proof please including German/British/Canadian sources that mesh and I will reply.Not just one[British] but all please.Thank You.

I am forced to wonder just what it is that is behind the way you post these snippets of information. You post a quote from some where without any source cited by yourself and then react to a response in this manner . To quote you, "Why ?"
Alan

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#9

Post by Sheldrake » 16 Nov 2015, 12:07

This is quite well trodden ground.

503 Heavy Tank battalion was part of the defences attacked in Op Goodwood, one of the most controversial battles in Normandy. One of its officers, von Rosen, rose a high rank in the Bundeswehr and became a regular veteran guide for the British Army Staff College's |staff ride to Normandy in the 1960s and 70s.

What is it the source for the AARs you are posting?

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#10

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 13:41

Sheldrake wrote:This is quite well trodden ground.

503 Heavy Tank battalion was part of the defences attacked in Op Goodwood, one of the most controversial battles in Normandy. One of its officers, von Rosen, rose a high rank in the Bundeswehr and became a regular veteran guide for the British Army Staff College's |staff ride to Normandy in the 1960s and 70s.

What is it the source for the AARs you are posting?
My sources are actual former members of the 503 and yours are ?? and if you have BR.AAR's please post for the combat dates I have stated thus far

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#11

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 13:45

Alanmccoubrey wrote:
Howling Wolf wrote:Proof please including German/British/Canadian sources that mesh and I will reply.Not just one[British] but all please.Thank You.

I am forced to wonder just what it is that is behind the way you post these snippets of information. You post a quote from some where without any source cited by yourself and then react to a response in this manner . To quote you, "Why ?"
My sources are former members of the 503 SPA and yours are ?

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#12

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 13:53

OKAY since you must know "why" I will post it

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#13

Post by Howling Wolf » 16 Nov 2015, 13:58

Michael Kenny wrote:
As for 'no German losses' this is highly unlikely given that far more that sPzAbt 503 were involved.
Prove it ? and while you are at it explain why the 503 was "unlikely" Proof please

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#14

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Nov 2015, 14:27

Howling Wolf wrote: My sources are former members of the 503 SPA
I will go out on a limb here. Your source is the 503 book by JJF.

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Re: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in France

#15

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Nov 2015, 16:17

Howling Wolf wrote:If one was counting all of the Shermans that were sent back for repair you would need to exclude them from the battlefield and that would be a LARGE number and that is not even considering the Shermans who's crews jumped out of perfectly functioning tanks because they were "scared".
It is counting every single Sherman that could possibly (it is not always the case that an Allied tank struck off as a 'loss is an actual loss)be lost' on 11/07/44. 9 x 75mm and 1 Firefly. In addition 1 Stuart was lost. A further Firefly and Stuart were marked as 'repairable under 24 hours' but as these were still with the unit they were not losses. There are no other losses and thus no 'LARGE' number of knocked out unrecorded Shermans.
As for crews abandoning ' perfectly functioning tanks because they were "scared' I suggest you read up on the rather large number of 'perfectly functioning tanks' thrown away by fleeing Tigers crews.

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