Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

[sandeepmukherjee196]

To my knowledge no operational Sherman (except one Canadian machine) survived that long in combat.

Now we know how your mind works. You take bit of information about a single tank and conflate it with the battlefield life of all Shermans.
All you can say is this single Sherman went right through the war. Claiming it was the only Sherman that made it to 1945 is wish-fulfilment.

Like the short combat life of the T34/76. Everyone knows they only lasted a week or two and none could have possibly made it to Berlin.............

1a420c90826f03d703a581f914a7fc27.jpg

Do you know of any other Shermans that survived for years through combat in WWII ?

[Orwell1984]

To my knowledge no operational Sherman (except one Canadian machine) survived that long in combat.

Now we know how your mind works. You take bit of information about a single tank and conflate it with the battlefield life of all Shermans.
All you can say is this single Sherman went right through the war. Claiming it was the only Sherman that made it to 1945 is wish-fulfilment.

Like the short combat life of the T34/76. Everyone knows they only lasted a week or two and none could have possibly made it to Berlin.............

1a420c90826f03d703a581f914a7fc27.jpg

Do you know of any other Shermans that survived for years through combat in WWII ?

Yes.

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/06/01/holy- ... d-to-tears

William Reed, sitting near the “Holy Roller” tank that had once rumbled up the beaches of Normandy, wiped his eyes and remembered.

Nearer to the moment than most of the 200 people in the crowd as part of a D-Day remembrance reunion, Reed had been in that same tank as a 21-year-old gunner when his crew landed on Juno Beach.

They were Reed, Frank White, Frank Fowler (who came up the name “Holy Roller”), Terry Doherty and Everett Smith — five men among thousands of Allied forces to take part in a turning-point battle of the war.

“I was almost in tears last night,” reliving those days and his comrades, said the 91-year-old who made the trip to London from his home in Fort Erie.

He was one of four D-Day veterans to attend Sunday’s remembrance event in London’s Victoria Park.

There, the Holy Roller, a permanently mounted Sherman tank, stands tribute to the Canadian war effort and to the 700 men of the First Hussars regiment.

The tank is believed to be the only one that made it all the way from D-Day through France, Belgium and Holland into Germany.

Reed served during every year of the war. But he laughs off notions that he was a war hero.

Obviously the reporter who wrote the article hadn't done much research either on long serving Shermans because aside from missing Bomb, he also missed this one too: Forceful III
http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueId=2470

This Sherman tank, nicknamed “Forceful III”, is dedicated to the memory of the member of the Governor General’s Foot Guards killed during the Second World War while operating as an armoured regiment. “Forceful III”, an M4A4 Sherman tank of the Governor General’s Foot Guards, landed in France in July 1944. Although damaged on several occasions, it was the regiment’s only tank, of the 69 issued before D-Day, to fight through France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany without being put out of action. It was brought back to Canada in 1946.

So there's three Canadian examples .

And the website that the above is from preservedtanks.com allows you to search by type.
Here's the page for Shermans
http://preservedtanks.com/TypeCategory. ... 2&Volume=2

which will allow anyone interested to search for other long serving preserved Shermans. Note the high-lighted word. These are the ones that got preserved. Other long serving Shermans may have been scrapped.

And that took me all of 10 minutes on google.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

To my knowledge no operational Sherman (except one Canadian machine) survived that long in combat.

Now we know how your mind works. You take bit of information about a single tank and conflate it with the battlefield life of all Shermans.
All you can say is this single Sherman went right through the war. Claiming it was the only Sherman that made it to 1945 is wish-fulfilment.

Like the short combat life of the T34/76. Everyone knows they only lasted a week or two and none could have possibly made it to Berlin.............

1a420c90826f03d703a581f914a7fc27.jpg

Do you know of any other Shermans that survived for years through combat in WWII ?

Yes.

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/06/01/holy- ... d-to-tears

William Reed, sitting near the “Holy Roller” tank that had once rumbled up the beaches of Normandy, wiped his eyes and remembered.

Nearer to the moment than most of the 200 people in the crowd as part of a D-Day remembrance reunion, Reed had been in that same tank as a 21-year-old gunner when his crew landed on Juno Beach.

They were Reed, Frank White, Frank Fowler (who came up the name “Holy Roller”), Terry Doherty and Everett Smith — five men among thousands of Allied forces to take part in a turning-point battle of the war.

“I was almost in tears last night,” reliving those days and his comrades, said the 91-year-old who made the trip to London from his home in Fort Erie.

He was one of four D-Day veterans to attend Sunday’s remembrance event in London’s Victoria Park.

There, the Holy Roller, a permanently mounted Sherman tank, stands tribute to the Canadian war effort and to the 700 men of the First Hussars regiment.

The tank is believed to be the only one that made it all the way from D-Day through France, Belgium and Holland into Germany.

Reed served during every year of the war. But he laughs off notions that he was a war hero.

Obviously the reporter who wrote the article hadn't done much research either on long serving Shermans because aside from missing Bomb, he also missed this one too: Forceful III
http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueId=2470

This Sherman tank, nicknamed “Forceful III”, is dedicated to the memory of the member of the Governor General’s Foot Guards killed during the Second World War while operating as an armoured regiment. “Forceful III”, an M4A4 Sherman tank of the Governor General’s Foot Guards, landed in France in July 1944. Although damaged on several occasions, it was the regiment’s only tank, of the 69 issued before D-Day, to fight through France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany without being put out of action. It was brought back to Canada in 1946.

So there's three Canadian examples .

And the website that the above is from preservedtanks.com allows you to search by type.
Here's the page for Shermans
http://preservedtanks.com/TypeCategory. ... 2&Volume=2

which will allow anyone interested to search for other long serving preserved Shermans. Note the high-lighted word. These are the ones that got preserved. Other long serving Shermans may have been scrapped.

And that took me all of 10 minutes on google.

Thanks for your most informative post. However I think you misread my post / question. The Sherman from Fury is supposed to have been with the crew since end 42... through the war..till the end. That makes it all of two and a half years. The instances quoted here refer to tanks with 9 / 10 months of combat longevity.

I am told that most Sherman units had over 50 percent attrition / turnover rates.

Thanks again...

Cheers
Sandeep

[Orwell1984]

Thanks for your most informative post. However I think you misread my post / question. The Sherman from Fury is supposed to have been with the crew since end 42... through the war..till the end. That makes it all of two and a half years. The instances quoted here refer to tanks with 9 / 10 months of combat longevity.

I am told that most Sherman units had over 50 percent attrition / turnover rates.

Thanks again...

Cheers
Sandeep

So what was the point of referring to the long serving Canadian tank when you made this statement:

To my knowledge no operational Sherman (except one Canadian machine) survived that long in combat.

?

The examples I provided all survived as long as the Canadian machine (which is called Bomb) you're referring to and disproved your claim that no operational combat Sherman (except Bomb) survived that long combat. You yourself set the benchmark for time served by referencing Bomb. Bomb also served for months, not years and yet you consider it an example of a Sherman that survived for long in combat. Why are years now your benchmark?
(Edit: I am assuming your reference to a long serving Canadian Sherman was to Bomb as it is the most well known of the Canadian preserved Shermans. If I am incorrect in this assumption and you are referring to another Canadian Sherman with years of combat service I'd appreciate knowing which vehicle you are referring to)
And if you're looking for years of service, can you explain how you think that would work, given the bulk of Shermans entered combat in 1944 with the invasion of Europe?

Perhaps you can also provide some actual historical sources for your claims (50 percent attrition rates) rather than using fictional movies

I am actually rather baffled by the point you're trying to make and its relevance to the thread you started.

[Michael Kenny]

I am told that most Sherman units had over 50 percent attrition / turnover rates.

100% wastage over a year would be nearer the mark for any tank unit in intense fighting. If you seek confirmation check the German figures for June-September 1944. They are easy to find with Zetterling. Get back to us with the Panzer 'wastage' rate.
Are you going to bring up the US 3rd AD? This unit had by far the largest wastage rate of any Allied unit being about twice that of the next highest loss for any AD. The uber-panzer boys are obsessed with this wastage rate and they reference it all the time in the hope gullible people assume it to be the norm for every Allied Unit.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Thanks for your most informative post. However I think you misread my post / question. The Sherman from Fury is supposed to have been with the crew since end 42... through the war..till the end. That makes it all of two and a half years. The instances quoted here refer to tanks with 9 / 10 months of combat longevity.

I am told that most Sherman units had over 50 percent attrition / turnover rates.

Thanks again...

Cheers
Sandeep

So what was the point of referring to the long serving Canadian tank when you made this statement:

To my knowledge no operational Sherman (except one Canadian machine) survived that long in combat.

?

The examples I provided all survived as long as the Canadian machine (which is called Bomb) you're referring to and disproved your claim that no operational combat Sherman (except Bomb) survived that long combat. You yourself set the benchmark for time served by referencing Bomb. Bomb also served for months, not years and yet you consider it an example of a Sherman that survived for long in combat. Why are years now your benchmark?
(Edit: I am assuming your reference to a long serving Canadian Sherman was to Bomb as it is the most well known of the Canadian preserved Shermans. If I am incorrect in this assumption and you are referring to another Canadian Sherman with years of combat service I'd appreciate knowing which vehicle you are referring to)
And if you're looking for years of service, can you explain how you think that would work, given the bulk of Shermans entered combat in 1944 with the invasion of Europe?

Perhaps you can also provide some actual historical sources for your claims (50 percent attrition rates) rather than using fictional movies

I am actually rather baffled by the point you're trying to make and its relevance to the thread you started.

This point has absolutely no relevance to the thread. Sorry. It continued from my friendly exchanges with Richard on the inadvisability of referring to Hollywood for war history or any any other form of history for that matter. The topic of Hollywood in turn came from some bantering over frivolous and tongue in cheek ethnic issues. Sorry again.

My idea was that the long lasting Canadian Sherman ran for over a year or more. Btw the first Shermans entered battle in 42.

[sandeepmukherjee196]

I am told that most Sherman units had over 50 percent attrition / turnover rates.

100% wastage over a year would be nearer the mark for any tank unit in intense fighting. If you seek confirmation check the German figures for June-September 1944. They are easy to find with Zetterling. Get back to us with the Panzer 'wastage' rate.
Are you going to bring up the US 3rd AD? This unit had by far the largest wastage rate of any Allied unit being about twice that of the next highest loss for any AD. The uber-panzer boys are obsessed with this wastage rate and they reference it all the time in the hope gullible people assume it to be the norm for every Allied Unit.

No comparison here between Uber Panzers or Lousy tanks. That was not the agenda at all. My point was about the patently untrue depiction of purported reality in the movie under reference.

[Orwell1984]

My idea was that the long lasting Canadian Sherman ran for over a year or more.

All the examples I provided (including the one you're referencing) ran for the approximate same length of time (D-day to VE Day). So they all fit your parameters.

Btw the first Shermans entered battle in 42.

I am aware of this. Which is why I wrote:

the bulk of Shermans entered combat in 1944 with the invasion of Europe

Note the highlighted word

Unless you would disagree that the majority of Shermans entered service in Europe during 1944 and more were serving in 1942?

But enough with the digressions. I think I've figured it out now.

Please carry on!

[Doslamibaterka]

Maybe Operation Solstice ( Unternehmen Sonnenwende) considered to be last German Panzer Offensive (February 1945) in Pomerania
Soviets repeled attack but Germans achieved slowing down Berlin Operation for 2 Months

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Maybe Operation Solstice ( Unternehmen Sonnenwende) considered to be last German Panzer Offensive (February 1945) in Pomerania
Soviets repeled attack but Germans achieved slowing down Berlin Operation for 2 Months

I thought that the Soviets stalled their Berlin offensive till April 16 due to considerations of logistic build up ?

[steverodgers801]

it was logistics and the need to free up their flank in Pomeramia, The main issue with logistics was the need to take cities that the Germans held to free up train routes and the conversion of the rail lines

[sandeepmukherjee196]

it was logistics and the need to free up their flank in Pomeramia, The main issue with logistics was the need to take cities that the Germans held to free up train routes and the conversion of the rail lines

Hi Steve..

Yes. You have a valid point here.

Cheers
Sandeep

[sandeepmukherjee196]

Maybe Operation Solstice ( Unternehmen Sonnenwende) considered to be last German Panzer Offensive (February 1945) in Pomerania
Soviets repeled attack but Germans achieved slowing down Berlin Operation for 2 Months

Hi...

Upon reflection, I think you have raised an important issue. If the Soviets crossed the Oder a month ago, the German resistance may have been considerably weaker. But that would not have had a strategic impact would it? The western allies were pretty far away in the first half of March. There would have been no race for Berlin. The Soviets would have rolled up Berlin and come to the Elbe as in the actual scenario. Then? Is there any chance they would have ventured beyond and encroached upon the areas earmarked for the allies?

Cheers
Sandeep

[Doslamibaterka]

Maybe Operation Solstice ( Unternehmen Sonnenwende) considered to be last German Panzer Offensive (February 1945) in Pomerania
Soviets repeled attack but Germans achieved slowing down Berlin Operation for 2 Months

I thought that the Soviets stalled their Berlin offensive till April 16 due to considerations of logistic build up ?

Historians are not 100 % if it happened due to logistic or Sonnewende


Doslamibaterka

[Doslamibaterka]

Maybe Operation Solstice ( Unternehmen Sonnenwende) considered to be last German Panzer Offensive (February 1945) in Pomerania
Soviets repeled attack but Germans achieved slowing down Berlin Operation for 2 Months

Hi...

Upon reflection, I think you have raised an important issue. If the Soviets crossed the Oder a month ago, the German resistance may have been considerably weaker. But that would not have had a strategic impact would it? The western allies were pretty far away in the first half of March. There would have been no race for Berlin. The Soviets would have rolled up Berlin and come to the Elbe as in the actual scenario. Then? Is there any chance they would have ventured beyond and encroached upon the areas earmarked for the allies?

Cheers
Sandeep

Good question
Main impact of this battle was that it extended war for few months

Here begins alternative history ''What if ?''
(impossible)

Maybe if Soviets rolled trought Berlin in March 1945 and continued to Western Germany and somehow split up with Western Allies
(highly impossible)

Doslamibaterka