Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

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Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#301

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 09 Sep 2016, 20:38

Delta Tank wrote that:
I believe Tom is correct.
:D :thumbsup:

DT also wrote:
I have been looking for any information on future plans/operations of 21st Army Group once a secure bridgehead was established over the Rhine at Arnhem, and as of yet I can't find any.
Which, if by "future plans/operations" means detailed operational plans, is also, I believe, correct. In addition, I have not been able to find "any information on future plans/operations" of 12th Army Group once secure bridgeheads were established over the Rhine on the front of 1st and 3rd US Armies.

What we do have are some outline SHAEF logistic appreciations for further advances in accordance with SHAEF directives to the Army Groups.
the following at a minimum would have to be accomplished before the Ruhr was assaulted, attacked, encircled, isolated, etc.
-western Holland would have to be cleared of enemy forces.
-supply dumps would have to be moved forward
-more divisions would have to be moved up for the proposed assault on the Ruhr
-sufficient air assets would have to be established close enough to support this operation


Yup, I'd agree with that. Several of us seem to recall seeing a reference to a halt for two weeks to restock, but we can't seem to find it again. Any help gratefully received.
I believe that if Operation Market Garden was successful the war would be over by Christmas is just a myth.
Yup, I'd agree with that too! I think that if MG had been successful and if the American 1st Army had managed to secure a bridgehead over the Rhine somewhere on its front, this may have increased the probability that the war would have completed before 8 May 1945. Although it would have probably meant that General Patton needed some blood pressure tablets. :lol:

If I were to speculate any more, though, I'd have to take myself off to the "What if?" section in disgrace. :idea:

Regards

Tom

Delta Tank
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#302

Post by Delta Tank » 09 Sep 2016, 20:42

Tom,

I did a quick look today on how many divisions were used to isolate and reduce the Ruhr in the Spring of 1945, and I counted 15 divisions!

Mike


sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#303

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 10 Sep 2016, 20:18

Two points :

We still haven't heard anything here about what exactly the Germans had available in the autumn of 44 to "fiercely" react with ?

And how many more tanks, SP guns, new formations and planes, the Germans pumped into the western front between autumn 44 and the spring of 45(the time when 15 divisions were fielded against the Ruhr)?

AdolfDettmer
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#304

Post by AdolfDettmer » 20 Oct 2016, 18:06

Whats amazing in this thread with the typical lauding of the so-called heroic german actions taken in Operation Market Garden elsewhere is the forgetting of what the real outcome of the failure of Operation Market Garden was- the systemic starvation of the Dutch by the Germans as a reprisal, the lengthening of the war which enabled the further mass murder of civilians and POWS by the Nazi Regime, and further deaths of allied soldiers attempting to end the scourge of Nazism on the continent.

Plus, half of the individuals that have been featured with photographs in this thread either were a part of or commanded units which were involved in heinous war crimes against the European Jewry or so-called "Partisans" during their time on the eastern front. Its convienant how that gets left out of the publication of their service records.

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#305

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 21 Oct 2016, 18:02

[*]In case the long thread has resulted in the original subject matter getting blurred, the topic happens to be : Late war strategic successes of the German forces in WW II. To that extent, the protagonists featured here have been mentioned depending on how significant their contributions were to the subject under discussion. This thread never pretended to be an exercise in pitching for Beatification of these soldiers a la, say, Mother (now Saint) Theresa of Calcutta.

[*]The German success here led to difficulties for the civilian population just as the Soviet successes in the east led to a genocide of ethnic Germans and their wholesale expulsion from the lands of their ancestors. Sad but such things do not feature in discussions about the military aspects of the war in the east.

[*] I would like to know which "half" of the protagonists eulogised here were involved in war crimes in the east please.

Cheers
Sandeep

AdolfDettmer
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#306

Post by AdolfDettmer » 24 Oct 2016, 15:39

Sandeep,

The starvation of the Dutch was not an occurrence that was caused by the Allied attack, it was the result of systematic policy of the Wehrmacht. And frankly, the mistreatment of Germans by the Soviets in the Soviet Occupied Territory is discussed frequently on this forum and others- often as an attempt to excuse the actions of the Wehrmacht in the East. Friedrich Christiansen ordered the embargo on food shipments. Sure, things would have been tough regardless, but the wholesale famine would likely not have occurred. That is what the result of the "late war german success" was, further suffering of a civilian population, all in an attempt to prolong the life of one of the most evil regimes in human history.

Also, it would be easier to list those who are not connected with War Crimes than those who are. The first officer you eulogized has already been discussed as likely to have been present for the mass executions of Jews both in Poland and in the Soviet Union. Either way, its a mute point. The Waffen-SS was a criminal organization, and virtually no one in this thread that you have eulogized was anything other than a volunteer. You aren't discussing conscripts post 1942, rather officers in senior leadership positions, many of whom had been with the Waffen-SS from the beginning of the war or who were volunteers.

Pena V
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#307

Post by Pena V » 25 Oct 2016, 03:33

AdolfDettmer,

Late war German strategic successes caused suffering of a civilian population. Early war German strategic successes caused also suffering of a civilian population. And so did mid war German strategic successes. In fact so did early/mid/late US/Russian/Japan/any nation strategic successes. I just don't see how this relates to this thread.
There are lots of threads covering subjects like treatment of occupied countries, German/Wehrmacht policy, war crimes, mass executions, criminality of Waffen-SS. About the only thing you forgot to mention was Hiroshima. Let's concentrate on late war German strategic successes in this thread and handle the other subjects (incl. Hiroshima) in their own threads and if you don't find a suitable thread you can always start a new one.

Regards,

Pena V

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#308

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 25 Oct 2016, 10:40

Hi Adolf / Pena...

If every German success has to be discounted through the prism of war crimes etc..then there would be only one thread on AHF i.e., Axis war crimes !
I was also not quite clear on what Adolf meant by the bland statement : "...And frankly, the mistreatment of Germans by the Soviets in the Soviet Occupied Territory is discussed frequently on this forum and others- often as an attempt to excuse the actions of the Wehrmacht in the East"..

Just because Soviet atrocities have been discussed previously they shouldnt be brought up again when topical? No atrocity excuses or cancels out any other wrong doing. I was saying that when one is discussing purely military / strategic issues..other distractions need not be brought in. Those things drag the thread away from context and start off a spiralling topic - derail which soon gets out of hand.

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#309

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 29 Nov 2016, 07:59

Hi everyone...

Coming back to Breslau...has anyone read this book : https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Final-Fo ... dp_product ?

I think Karl Hanke is grossly under rated as a military commander. His membership of the Allgemeine SS, proximity to Himmler and his obvious awareness of the goings on in Auschwitz tend to go against him.

In his favour should be viewed his extreme revulsion about the genocide in Auschwitz and the fact that his SS rank was not just a hollow thing sans military merit. Few know that he made his bones in actual combat as an officer in the Panzerwaffe, on behalf of the regular Heer. And last but not the least, his 3 months Magnum Opus at Breslau.

People deride him for his escape (desertion?) from Breslau on 5 May. But wasn't that the day when he heard about his elevation to Reichsfuehrer SS ? Wouldn't his new position require him to play a National role which was impossible to be discharged from the crumbling cauldron at Breslau?

Cheers
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#310

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 29 Nov 2016, 08:29

http://www.zeit.de/2005/10/A-Breslau

This is an interesting report in German media on the defence of Breslau

Michael Kenny
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#311

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Nov 2016, 15:35

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
People deride him for his escape (desertion?) from Breslau on 5 May. But wasn't that the day when he heard about his elevation to Reichsfuehrer SS ? Wouldn't his new position require him to play a National role which was impossible to be discharged from the crumbling cauldron at Breslau?
Sure. That must have been it. He was needed to lead the Wehrmacht to victory in its summer 1945 offensive..............

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#312

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 29 Nov 2016, 20:17

Michael Kenny wrote:
sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
People deride him for his escape (desertion?) from Breslau on 5 May. But wasn't that the day when he heard about his elevation to Reichsfuehrer SS ? Wouldn't his new position require him to play a National role which was impossible to be discharged from the crumbling cauldron at Breslau?
Sure. That must have been it. He was needed to lead the Wehrmacht to victory in its summer 1945 offensive..............
Sorry I actually missed that part of Hitler's will and testament. Where he bequeathed the role of supreme military commander to the new RFSS...

hoot72
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#313

Post by hoot72 » 01 May 2017, 15:50

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:The Battle of the Bulge or Wacht am Rhein was a strategic disaster for the Germans assuming almost criminal dimensions! The 6 SS Pz Armee performed as miserably as some of the flatfooted Soviet formations we joke about from the early months of the Russian campaign.So did the FJ..whose operation in the Ardennes was an amateurish joke. The Americans, weak on the ground or not, fought brilliantly.

It has been a fashion to talk disparagingly of US ground forces' abilities in the war. Their firepower and air monopoly are quoted as reasons for their success. Not true really. After Kasserine they won wherever and whenever they fought, regardless of the conditions. In the Ardennes, the air bogey too wasn't there when it mattered most.

If the Germans faced a strategic disaster after crossing the Meuse..2 pz armies cut off en route to Antwerp..or after taking Antwerp, Hitler could have been held responsible as the father of the plan. But as thing turned out, at the operational level itself, the German attack, especially the 6 SS turned out to be a shameful damp squib.
Without wanting to antagonize you in any way, have you actually either been in an armoured or infantry division and attempted to move large scale tanks, apc's and trucks as well as jeeps across village type roads that are neither graded nor asphalted and are pure mud and slosh over a 20-30 mile distance?

A lot of things can and do go wrong even with the best of plans as was the case with the Battle of the Bulge. It's very easy, in hindsight now, 70 odd years later to comment that it was a strategic disaster for the germans assuming almost criminal dimensions.

If everything went according to plan, the german's would have pushed the allies back to the beach's of France and back across the pond to England.

It was a hell of a lot more complicated than just planning an offensive and expecting things to go to plan.
Whever we went, whatever we did, we quoted the songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgUhjWJVVCQ&t=199s

sandeepmukherjee196
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#314

Post by sandeepmukherjee196 » 13 Feb 2022, 17:50

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
30 Jun 2016, 10:43
The dead Waffen SS officer on the Waal bridge shown in the above sketch (RIP):


ss.dead.jpg



The demolition charge being actually removed, as detailed above:



Nijmegan-bridge-595x593.jpg


Ciao
Sandeep
Hi everyone...

Its been a while since we visited this thread.

Found something interesting in a macabre sense, in "It Never Snows in September" -

"'Shameful mutilations had been
committed against the wounded lying
on the road bridge. Stab wounds to
the head, throat and heart were seen
by Lieutenant Schultz and Albrecht.
These were recorded on paper and
passed on to the next higher
authority."
- Hauptsturmfuehrer Oskar Schwappacher', RK, CO Abteilung Schwappacher, reported the scene on the Waal road bridge, which had been rushed by the Irish tanks, after he disengaged from the erstwhile German perimeter in Nijmegen, with troops from isolated pockets.
schwappacher.jpg
schwappacher.jpg (23.04 KiB) Viewed 589 times

... And

"'The Americans behaved as they
always do, throwing our wounded
from the bridge into the Waal, and
shooting the few prisoners among the
army reservists."

- Oberstleutnant Fritz Fullriede of the Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger Division, based on reports from the trainee NCOs forming the Kompanie - Runge (of KG- Henke)- FJ Ausbildungs und Erstaz Regiment-Herman Goering, defending the rail bridge over the Waal.

I somehow didnt know about these frolics of the MG forces.

Cheers
Sandeep

Froggy0
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Re: Late War German Strategic Successes in 1944-45

#315

Post by Froggy0 » 02 Feb 2024, 10:24

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote:
04 Jul 2016, 19:17
The Heroes of the German victory in the Niederrhein - Waal theatre :

SS-Brigadeführer und Geberalmajor der Waffen-SS Heinz Harmel, CO 10. SS-Pz.Div. "Frundsberg"
harmel.jpg

SS-Obersturmbannführer Walter Harzer, CO 9. SS-Pz.Div. "Hohenstaufen"
Harzer.jpg

SS-Gruppenführer und Generalleutnant der Waffen-SS Willy Bittrich, CO II. SS-Panzer-Korps
bittrich.jpg

SS-Hauptsturmführer Viktor Gräbner, CO SS-Aufklärungsabteilung 9 ( Recce battalion of the Hohenstaufen)
Viktor_Graebner.jpg

SS-Sturmbannführer Dr. med. Egon Skalka, Chief Medical Officer, "Hohenstaufen"
skalka.jpg


Ciao
Sandeep
SS-Obersturmführer Labahn,
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