KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

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GregSingh
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KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#1

Post by GregSingh » 18 Jul 2016, 11:39

Just came across this one... Enjoy!
KStN 161c 1.8.1940 - a.jpg
KStN 161c from 1.8.1940 page a
KStN 161c 1.8.1940 - b.jpg
KStN 161c from 1.8.1940 page b
KStN 161c 1.8.1940 - c.jpg
KStN 161c from 1.8.1940 page c

Eugen Pinak
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#2

Post by Eugen Pinak » 19 Jul 2016, 17:02

GregSingh - thank you for sharing your find.


Gary Kennedy
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#3

Post by Gary Kennedy » 22 Jul 2016, 19:49

Greg,

Second the 'nice find'! Was that in germandocsinrussia at all?

Comparing it to 151c of 10th Oct39 the 'combatant' personnel of Coy HQ and the MG and Mortar Platoons seem identical, so perhaps we can assume that 138c used 131c as a template for the Rifle Squads/Platoon structure and Coy HQ, while the trains and transport personnel were adjusted to account for everything being motorised rather than horse drawn?

Gary

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#4

Post by GregSingh » 23 Jul 2016, 05:33

I thought you might like it, Gary.
Yes, there are lot more there, but I'm not sure which ones are already known. Is there a list?
This one was neither on Christophs's nor Leo's web pages.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#5

Post by Leo Niehorster » 23 Jul 2016, 09:40

Look again.
   http://niehorster.org/011_germany/tessin/kstn_0150.html

Anyway, this is also listed in Tessin. :wink:
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#6

Post by GregSingh » 23 Jul 2016, 10:02

Yes, yes I know it existed. I'm just never sure if it is one of those with content 'known'' or 'lost'...
So I was asking for a list of 'known content' KStN's...

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#7

Post by Leo Niehorster » 23 Jul 2016, 17:10

For a long time I have considered adding a "found at ..." column to the KStN lists. But my emphasis so far has been on complementing Tessin, not making a new listing.

The additions and changes on the web site are the ones I have transcribed from my check marks — and very small ( :wink: ) pencil notes — in my the Tessin volume. I made an Excel file listing the BA-MA RHD11 microfiche contents. I'm sure someone has a list of those available from NARA. Just have to find a method to combine these and then transfer the data to my web site without an enormous programming (HTML) effort. (I'm lazy.) And do I indicate ALL the sources, or just the one where I got mine? (I don't think I remember them all.) And how detailed ... ? Will just BA-MA do, or RHD11, or RHD11/xx? Or the microfiche number and location? How about those located in NARA films but not in the standard film? Then there are the newly released Russian-German files ... And do I note missing pages / illegible copies? Just haven't thought of a way to do that space-wise. Maybe as footnotes. To be complete one should include the multiple changes — in addition to those already noted — ordered by the organizational departments, (such as a global order to reduce "x" number of personnel per company, or the Waffen-SS ordering additional personnel for all battalion headquarters, or the OKH listing additional personnel and equipment for all units in North Africa, etc.). The there are those in the Army Memoranda (Heeres Mitteilungen)? I think you understand my putting off taking on this headache.

Anyway, consider it a pending (major) project.
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#8

Post by GregSingh » 24 Jul 2016, 03:38

Thanks Leo.

Here is the NARA list.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/53829401/KStN-List

Germandocsinrussia seem to have a whole bunch of KStN's translated to Russian (mostly without German originals). Among them I've seen 147 and several for early war cavalry units: 3xx.

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#9

Post by Leo Niehorster » 24 Jul 2016, 11:56

Yes, early cavalry KStN are as rare hens teeth.
(My Russian = 0, so translations are not an option. And even then, think of the mess in back translation into German.)

Unfortunately, scribed requires a subscription. Having seen my own pirated website data (for example, the Tessin errata pages) being offered for a price, I refuse to use their website.
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#10

Post by KStN201 » 29 Jul 2016, 21:11

Leo Niehorster wrote:For a long time I have considered adding a "found at ..." column to the KStN lists. But my emphasis so far has been on complementing Tessin, not making a new listing.

The additions and changes on the web site are the ones I have transcribed from my check marks — and very small ( :wink: ) pencil notes — in my the Tessin volume. I made an Excel file listing the BA-MA RHD11 microfiche contents. I'm sure someone has a list of those available from NARA. Just have to find a method to combine these and then transfer the data to my web site without an enormous programming (HTML) effort. (I'm lazy.) And do I indicate ALL the sources, or just the one where I got mine? (I don't think I remember them all.) And how detailed ... ? Will just BA-MA do, or RHD11, or RHD11/xx? Or the microfiche number and location? How about those located in NARA films but not in the standard film? Then there are the newly released Russian-German files ... And do I note missing pages / illegible copies? Just haven't thought of a way to do that space-wise. Maybe as footnotes. To be complete one should include the multiple changes — in addition to those already noted — ordered by the organizational departments, (such as a global order to reduce "x" number of personnel per company, or the Waffen-SS ordering additional personnel for all battalion headquarters, or the OKH listing additional personnel and equipment for all units in North Africa, etc.). The there are those in the Army Memoranda (Heeres Mitteilungen)? I think you understand my putting off taking on this headache.

Anyway, consider it a pending (major) project.

I have recently begun to compile a complete list of all the KStNs I have obtained from various sources. I did this by using your Tessin errata lists converted into Word documents. I then assigned a code number to each source and then noted the source codes highlighted in yellow in the right hand column. Some of the sources are themselves detailed in a separate spreadsheet given the space limitations in the word document. If I scan down the document I can see at a glance if a have a particular KStN or not. Obviously it just shows the KStNs and not the other information you refer to (I don’t have that anyway!).

I was just about to ask if anyone had the BA-MA RHD11 index of KStNs since I am considering a visit to Freiburg. I would appreciate it if you could send me a copy of your BA-MA RHD11 Excel spreadsheet to give my an idea of what KStNs are available at Freiburg as well as being able to establish what I don’t yet have and what is available there.

After noting the KStNs available at Freiburg I would be happy to post my Word documents if they could be useful.

I suspect I only have a small portion of the KStNs available and since my main field of interest is the pre 1943 infantry division it may be that a large portion of those KStNs I don’t have are in fact lost.

David

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#11

Post by Gary Kennedy » 30 Jul 2016, 01:06

The early war years (1939-41) are a somewhat barren area in terms of KStN. With three important inserts from the germandocsinrussia site you can do the 1937 Inf Regt, along with the 1939 reorg of the Rifle and MG Coys, excepting the Regtl Band! Very little available though for that era of Inf Div Recce and Pio units. Likewise there are just fragments of the 1941-42 Inf Div left; the first time you can pull together the full set of tables for an Inf Div is May44 would you believe.

Gary

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#12

Post by Eugen Pinak » 31 Jul 2016, 14:40

Leo Niehorster wrote:Yes, early cavalry KStN are as rare hens teeth.
(My Russian = 0, so translations are not an option. And even then, think of the mess in back translation into German.)
Some KStN there are in German. The rest is mostly faithful translation of original documents. Of course, there are also summaries of units TOE, but even they are better that guesstimates.

Leo Niehorster wrote:Unfortunately, scribed requires a subscription. Having seen my own pirated website data (for example, the Tessin errata pages) being offered for a price, I refuse to use their website.
I've downloaded this list. If you want, I can sent it to you.

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#13

Post by Leo Niehorster » 31 Jul 2016, 15:46

@Eugen.
I have copy printed and "printed to file" the KStN I was missing.
Thank you for your offer. I copied and pasted the NARA list. Feel good pirating that site. :lol:
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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#14

Post by Eugen Pinak » 31 Jul 2016, 16:29

Leo Niehorster wrote:@Eugen.
I have copy printed and "printed to file" the KStN I was missing.
Thank you for your offer. I copied and pasted the NARA list. Feel good pirating that site. :lol:
Leo - you're always welcome. I'm also glad, that you're feeling good now :lol:

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Re: KStN 161c from 1.8.1940

#15

Post by KStN201 » 31 Jul 2016, 17:26

Gary Kennedy wrote:The early war years (1939-41) are a somewhat barren area in terms of KStN. With three important inserts from the germandocsinrussia site you can do the 1937 Inf Regt, along with the 1939 reorg of the Rifle and MG Coys, excepting the Regtl Band! Very little available though for that era of Inf Div Recce and Pio units. Likewise there are just fragments of the 1941-42 Inf Div left; the first time you can pull together the full set of tables for an Inf Div is May44 would you believe.

Gary
Gary,
Yes, I thought that would be the case.
However, I have managed to find some KStNs which had seemed to be lost on the germandocsinrussia site you mention. These are:

First batch
9 – 1/1/40
10 – 15/11/40
11a – 1/6/42
21a – 1/5/40
23 – 28/8/40
51 – 28/8/40
54 – 24/8/40
71 – 28/12/39
101n – 1/10/43
120 – 30/12/39
131c – 10/10/39
151c – 10/10/39
154V – 1/9/44
164 – 30/12/39
166 – 30/12/39
167 – 30/12/39
184d – 31/1/41
187 – 31/1/41
215 – 31/1/41
401 – 1/3/44
401n – 1/10/43
403 – 1/3/44
403n – 1/10/43
433n – 1/10/43
459n – 1/10/43 (summary totals)
532 – 27/2/40
533 – 31/3/40
540 – 31/3/40
562 – 23/5/40
575n – 1/12/43 (summary totals)
582n – 1/10/43
582n – 1/12/43
590n – 1/12/43
613 – 1/3/42
702n – 1/4/44
702V – 1/9/44
711n – 1/4/44
723n – 1/4/44
805 – 15/2/40
942 – 20/5/40
1103 – 1/4/44
1104 – 1/4/44
1108 (fg) – 1/4/44
1113 (gp) (fg) – 1/4/44
1120a – 1/4/44
1121 (fg) – 1/4/44
1121a (gp) – 1/3/43
1144 – 29/2/40
1145 (gp) – 1/3/43
1309 – 3/1/40
1379 – 7/2/40
2043 – 15/3/40
2097 – 31/1/41
2222 (W) – 30/4/40
2251 – 30/11/43
5095 – 15/3/40

New batch
24 – 31/1/42
101 – 1/11/41
101n – 1/10/43
111 – 1/2/42
111n – 1/10/43
130 – 1/2/42
130 – 1/3/43
130n – 10/10/43
151n – 1/10/43
151n – 1/12/43
161c – 1/8/40
171n – 1/10/43
188an – 1/10/43
188fn – 1/10/43
702n – 1/10/43
711n – 1/10/43
723n – 1/10/43
733 – 1/2/41
1109 – 15/9/41
1112 – 15/9/41
1121 – 15/9/41
1122a – 15/9/41
1123 – 15/9/41
1124 – 15/9/41
1162 – 15/9/41
2041 – 1/3/42
7725 – 1/4/41

Obviously if anyone has found others it would be great to hear about them!

David

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