KStN project

[CNE503]

Hello,

Just a thought for something that maybe already exists - but I don't know it if it is the case: a lot of KStN don't exist anymore, but some distinguished researchers do know their existence. Other ones are well-known, and people like Christoph or Leo largely share them with us. But it generally lacks an information: the period of validity of such KStN. A lot of "amateurs" (as I consider I am) find it difficult to know what KStN was used for such or such unit in such frametime, when another one took its place.

Don't you think it would be possible to create a table similar to my personal table concerning the German tank productions (see the attachment)?
There would be the type of unit (for instance a Schützen/Grenadierkompanie) and a frametime-block with the number of the KStN used to its organization during this frametime.

What do you think of this idea?
Cheers,

CNE503

[Gary Kennedy]

It was something I played about with, way back when I was trying to understand the KStN system in particular (and the British and US equivalents in general), and let's face, I'm still trying to!

I think the problem the professional researchers will mention is that for the German Army a lot of organisational detail was directed by orders. So, Inf Div XYZ receives an order to shift from the presently authorised KStN for an Inf Regt (which can range from Feb41 to late 1943for the relevant subunits) to the nA KStN (say all those from Dec43). They'll then get a further order to amend to the later drafts of the nA tables from May44. Those orders will not necessarily be issued at the same date that the relevant KStN are themselves dated, so you need not only the KStN but (I think) also the orders for each particular Div.

Late war, there was at least a concerted effort to drag formations onto the same level in terms of organisation. In the 1942-43 period there's a lot of variation in what Inf Divs looked like compared to one another.

There's info available on Sturmpanzer in the NARA rolls for the Inf Div Type 44, Volks Grenadier and Type 45, and for the fG Pz Div. Going back earlier than that, you can sometimes find listings of KStNs applicable to a particular Div, but rarely are all those tables around.

Gary

[CNE503]

Hi Gary,

I understand pretty well that. But the point is only to list the "standard" KStN for such or such unit during such or such frametime, not to enter the details of what was in it. The users of such a table may be aware of the particuliarity of the German organizational mess in 1939-1943!

The only thing I want to list is for instance:
- for a Jäger Division battalion-Pionier Kompanie: KStN XXXa from such date until such date, KStN 711a from November 1st, 1943 until the end of the war.

The researchers would have an index with the period of validity and the appliance of a KStN to such unit (here in a Jäger Division exclusively) or such unit (Panzer Division, Sturmpionier Bataillon, Infanterie Division, etc, etc.).

But:
1) it may exist yet in one form or another;
2) it might be a good idea, but maybe I don't imagine the amount of work that such a list would require...
3) it might also be a bad idea according to the most prominent KStN users (that I'm not...).

Cheers,

CNE503

[Marcus]

I would be happy to host the result of such a project on www.axishistory.com so it is easily available.

[CNE503]

Well, Marcus, I'm ready to do the task to compile it, but I'm a complete nooby concerning the KStN and I would need help to the material...

CNE503

[Jan-Hendrik]

Or simply: ask Piet! I do not know anybody with such knowledge on this topic than him!

Jan-Hendrik

Damn, 4th try to post....

[CNE503]

Yes Jan-Hendrik, I'm well aware that there are on this forum some very experienced people concerning KStN that will do the job more properly and quickly than I would. But it is just a thought!

CNE503

[CNE503]

As a first step, I propose to do a test with an active Infanterie Regiment on September 1st, 1939. For this, I need to know what were the KStN used at this time for:
- a Schützenkompanie (KStN 131b 1.10.37);
- an infantry battalion Schweremaschinengewehrkompanie (KStN 151a 1.10.37);
- a regimental Infanterie-Panzerabwehr-Kompanie (KStN 184 1.10.37);
- a regimental Infanteriegeschütz-Kompanie (KStN 171 1.10.37);
- a regimental Stabskompanie;
- a Regimentsstab;
- a Bataillonsstab (KStN 111 1.10.37);
- an Infanterie-Reiterzug (KStN 181 1.10.37);
- an Infanterie-Pionierzug;
- an Infanterie-Nachrichtenzug;
- a leichte Infanteriekolonne (KStN 201 1.10.37).

Please correct me and add anything helpful. In particular, I need to have the period of validity of these KStN (when they were suppressed and replaced by others).

Cheers,

CNE503

[Gary Kennedy]

Well that one we can do with a greater degree of certainty. I'll stick with British abbreviations if you're OK with that.

Regt HQ - 101(R) - 01.10.37

Mtd Inf Pl - 181 - 01.10.37
Inf Pio Pl - 196 - 30.12.39
Inf Regt Sig Pl - 221 - 01.10.37

Inf Bn HQ - 111(R) - 01.10.37
Rifle Coy - 131a(R) - 01.10.37
Rifle Coy - 131b(R) - 01.10.37
MG Coy - 151a(R) - 01.10.37
MG Coy - 151b(R) - 01.10.37

Rifle Coy - 131c - 10.10.39
MG Coy - 151c - 10.10.39

Inf Gun Coy - 171 - 01.10.37
Inf Atk Coy - 184 - 01.10.37
Lt Inf Col - 201 - 01.10.37

Band - 298 - 01.11.38

Now straight off you can find complications. There are three variants of Rifle Coy and the same for MG Coys. As Leo will tell you, it depends on which Wave Divs were formed as to which pairing of Rifle/MG Coys they had, also whether they had the semi-standard Inf Gun Coy or the 8 Lt gun version. Also the above excludes the Regts armed with Czech 'booty' weapons, who had different tables for the Rifle/MG Coys, Atk Coy and had a Mortar Coy in place of an Inf Gun Coy.

The good news is that on germandocsinrussia I found a summary table for a Inf Div, and the single line entry for the Inf Regt did show precisely the same numbers of personnel, horses and weapons I got from dropping all the totals into a spreadsheet (3060 men and 641 horses). The other good news is that all the above KStN are around, excepting the Band, but that doesn't look to have changed throughout the war (so you can literally put the Band back together).

Gary

[CNE503]

Thanks Gary! The missing puzzle piece is the period of validity of these KStN. For instance, when the Regt HQ KStN 101(R) dated October 1st, 1937 was replaced by another one?

CNE503

[Gary Kennedy]

Theoretically it was replaced when the superseding table was issued, so a new 101 appears dated 01.02.41, as part of a general update for the Inf Regt. From that point on units should be expecting to receive orders to change to the new organisation, and get the resources necessary. They may also likely need the authorisation to make promotions where necessary to fill any new billets created.

The Oct37 101 had (for HQ only), 23 all ranks, 10 horses and 5 m/c (2 with sidecars). A summary figure I found for what I think was Feb41 101 gives 24 all ranks, 10 horses, 5 m/c (2 with sidecars) and 1 vehicle. The next issue for 101 is 01.11.41, the one recently flagged up as found. That has 24 all ranks, 10 horses, 2 cars and 4 m/c (1 with side car).

The changes between the three issues are relatively slight for the HQ staff, so changing to meet the new KStN effectivelt requires a car and a driver to be provided, but that could be a long wait. (The Oct37 table included Trains elements which were moved into the Staff Coy when it appears in Feb41 I think.)

Gary

[GregSingh]

Gary, isn't a bicycle platoon missing from the regiment?

[Leo Niehorster]

Well, an interesting project. Good idea doing it in little pieces. As you know, there are over 1000 KStN alone just for the combat (as opposed to training and replacement) infantry units. And then multiply by different issue dates, modifications, etc.. Not to mention the other inspectorates.

If I may, I would like to discuss some of the hurdles you will have to jump.

One of the interesting facts of German units is that they would continue with the original KStN even though a new one had been issued. So you then have two, or more, KStN valid at the same time, as specific orders were issued to each unit, (or groups of units) before the new KStN could be applied. And, KStN that made major modifications had to wait until the unit could be withdrawn from combat, either behind the line, or even back to Germany or France. You actually have to look at the units' orders, or those applying to them specifically, to establish which KStN with which modifications applied at any one time to a specific unit. Not that the unit had then actually adopted in the new configuration; just that it had to report its readiness state, requisition equipment, material, rations, etc. applying this new organization. Of course, you can say globally, KStN applied to a type of unit, but if you really want to know, you have to hunt down any orders applying to that unit. Which — unfortunately — are probably not all locatable, or still exist.

The KStN themselves held many comments regarding acceptable substitutes.

Furthermore, a KStN was modified in accordance with where and when the unit it applied to was raised and/or located. Units in the West tended to have older equipment, and less firepower. Also, manpower tended to be of a lower fitness level. Less specialists was allocated.

The various required types and numbers of specialists would probably not have been met, even in the early years. The longer to war lasted, the less round holes could be fitted with round pegs. One of the reasons for the creation of service units (Versorgungseinheiten) at battalion level was the lack of enough specialists to fill all the company level slots.

Frankly, KStN (with all the modifications and changes) can only be seen as being applied on the date the unit was raised or suffered a complete refit. It would be an exaggeration to say that the moment the unit was involved in combat that the actual organization was more or less a matter of the commander's whim and what was provided by the relevant parks and depots — as the general organization was fixed — but certainly the number and types of equipment would have varied considerably after that date.

The history of KStN reflects the typical German tendency to micromanage and over-engineer.

[CNE503]

Well thank you to offer your help, I'm sure it will be very appreciated.
I'm realizing a first example that I'll submit later to the distinguished forum members for validation/correction. Just let me a couple of days

And thank you to explain with so many interesting details the KStN "philosophy" and practice. I think such an explanation would deserve to figure in the final document to warn the readers about their relativity.

Cheers,

CNE503

[Gary Kennedy]

Gary, isn't a bicycle platoon missing from the regiment?

Yes, you're quite right Greg, KStN 183, not issued until 01.03.40 from Leo's Tessin list. Looks to be shown for certain 3rd and 8th Wave Divs in place of the Horse Pl, also for Czech equipped Divs, but on Gliederung dated Jan 1940.