Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#16

Post by pintere » 31 Aug 2016, 15:05

Cult Icon wrote:I am most curious about the "750" tank kills in late August-Sept and what battles they attribute this to.

The number for Mius/4th battle of Kharkov makes some sense as both were big tank battles but the number for the retreat to the Dnepr actions are unfathomable to me.
I actually think that they are in a sense, necessary.

http://ww2-weapons.com/russian-vs-germa ... -in-ww-ii/

The article above has a chart that shows Russian and German tank losses by month. Since it doesn't include assault guns, it's a bit lower than total AFV losses, but still gives a good idea of overall losses. If we go by simply tank losses however, we see that July/August were the worst months for the Red Army in 1942-44, they lost 3,800< AFVs for both months. And in 1943, the runner-up month is September, where they lost 2,000< AFVs.

I think the problem is that we just don't think of September as a very devastating month for the Red Army simply because it doesn't have many of the famous tank battles like in July-August, but it's clear it was a costly month for the Red Army as well.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#17

Post by Cult Icon » 31 Aug 2016, 16:08

I was under the impression that both sides (Soviet and German) had exhausted their best strength in July-August and were operating at a lower level. The Panzer arm was certainly greatly weakened. Stalin's favorite: 2TA largely show that this was the case for their armored corps. Time to pull out Ziemke, Erickson, etc.


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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#18

Post by EugE » 03 Sep 2016, 13:04

Cult Icon wrote:Raus, Panzer battles pg.242:

4th Battle of Kharkov 13-25 August 1943:
This antitank defense alone would not have been sufficient to repulse the expected Soviet mass tank at-tack, but at the last moment the reinforcements we had so long been re-questing—in the form of the Das Reich SS Panzergrenadier Division—ar-rived with a strong panzer component; I immediately dispatched it to the most endangered sector.
The ninety-six PzKw V Panthers, thirty-five PzKw VI Tigers, and twenty-five StG III self-propelled assault guns had hardly taken their assigned positions on 19 August when the first large-scale attack of the Fifth Guards Tank Army got under way. The first hard German blow, however, hit the masses of Russian tanks that had been recognized while they were still assembling in the villages and flood plains of a brook valley. Escorted by Luftwaffe fight-ers, which cleared the sky of Soviet aircraft within a few minutes, wings of heavily laden Ju 87 "Stukas" came on in wedge formation and unloaded their cargoes of destruction in well-timed dives on the enemy tanks caught in this congested area.
Raus' claims 420 tank kills on the 5GTA with the 2.SS DR contributing the most out of the weakened units in the region. Raus, the XI Korps commander, is silent about DR afterwards.

Armored Bears (3.Pz unit history) mentioned the Das Reich Panther battalion being shifted to support one of their depleted PzG regiments. This force claimed "50 tank kills".
Are you serious?
The 5GTA hasn't 420 tank in that time.
" At the beginning of August 43 the 5 g.TA consisted of 29 Armoured Corps + 1446 SP-artillery regiment and 18 Armoured Corps, 5 g.Mechanized Corps + 1447 SP-artillery regiment, 53 g.Armoured Regiment, 1 g.Motorcycle Regiment, 1526 and 1549 SP-artillery regiments.

August 3rd the 5 g.TA has ran into position of 6 PzDiv near Orlovka - Bessonovka and it's advancement was stopped due to strong defense. Also there, in Orlovka, was located 503 s.PzAbt with 6 PzKpfw VI. The 5 g.TA had the following combat formation - 29 and 18 AC in first line while 5 g.MC in reserve. Thereafter at August 6 the advanced units of the 5 g.TA have moved along of the Udy river were engaged in battle with 3 PzDiv in the Zolochev city. The advancement of the 5 g.TA again was stopped due to strong defense. The battle for the Zolochev take longer than planned - until August 9. At evening August 9 the 5 g.TA received order from General Headquarters about the transfer to reserve due to high losses. 11.08.43 It had only 106 tanks - 88 T-34 and 18 T-70, the losses of tanks were 254, 111 from them were burned-out, 29 tanks have been damaged as a result of Luftwaffe action(24 T-34 and 6 T-70) and more 14 were blown up by mines.
At early Morning of August 12 the 5 g.TA take up positions southward from Bogodukhov, 29 and 18 AC in first line (Khrushchevaya Nikitovka - Kiyany) while 5 g.MC in reserve northward from Bogodukhov, due to order of regrouping for offensive to Kovyagi-Valki. But at 08:00 of August 12 ϟϟ PzGrDiv. "Totenkopf" and "Das Reich" started offensive to Bogodukhov. They have quickly broken resistance of the Soviet units - 97 and 13 Guards shooting divisions and have made contact with units of the 5 g.TA which were ready for offensive. The 5 g.TA had 63 T-34 and 22 T-70 tanks losses from 12.08 to 20.08. It is possible to tell that it has appeared in due time in a proper place. If the Soviet command has not rearranged Rotmistrov army under Bogodukhov, operation "Rumjantsev" would be put on an verge of catastrophe.
At afternoon of August 20 It start regrouping to area of 53 Army near Polevoe and started attack without success by 18 AC and 5 g.MC at 17:00 August 21 in Lyubotin-Korotich direction, the 29 AC still kept positions near Bogodukhov (18 AC had 80 tanks and 5 g.MC had 50 tanks - CАDD, file 223, inventory 50664, doc. 9, pgs. 186–187.).
15 tanks were sink into the mud of boggy bank Udy river, some tanks were blown up by mines. On the next day the parts of the 5 g.TA continued attack at early morning but were stopped by two tank companies of "Das Rech" Panther Abt. around Starja-Ljubotin and Kommuna, as a whole for a day Panthers knocked out 48 Soviet tanks. August 23, 12 Km west of Kharkov, the platoon of 2-nd tank company of Panther Abt. "Das Rech" broke up a Russian tank assault. The platoon commander alone destroyed 7 tanks from 10. On the 24th "Das Reich" 6-th tank company with 9 PzKpfw IV's, battled 60 T-34's at Korotich farm. This tanks knocked out 29 tanks of the 60, plus some "Tigers" appeared in time also knocked out 11 enemy tanks, around 56 Soviet tanks were knocked out by "Das Reich" units in that day. From August 21 to 29 the 5 g.TA lost 114 T-34 and 15 T-70 just when moved only 12 km.

According to the Russian Central Archive of Defense Department (CАDD, file 332, inventory 4948, doc. 34, pgs. 4, 43, 61.) in total for August 43 the 5 g.TA has had following losses: burned-out - 324, destroyed by artillery - 100, destroyed by mines - 14, destroyed by Luftwaffe - 7 tanks. The losses in manpower during August were: 60-65 % senior officers, 85% battalion and company commanders, 75% radio operator's.
During August 43 the 5g.TA units have destroyed 413 tanks, 37 self-propelled guns, 70 armoured cars and SPW, 245 guns of different caliber, 200 mortars, 695 motor vehicles and a lot of other technics. (Central Archive of Defense Department, file 223, inventory 50664, doc. 38, pg 124)

The German commander of XI corps E. Raus wrote in memoirs: "All attempts to beat off Kharkov cost 5th Guards tank army of loss of 420 tanks for three days of fights. As effective fighting force on the near future it has ceased to exist". - Now we see that he was wrong because the 5 g.TA was weakened before August 22 and tanks losses for three days(21-23) can't be 420.

We can ask may be not only 5 g.TA has 420 tanks but some more armoured units in Steppe front ? The Steppe Front commander I. Konev informed the Main Headquarters about condition of the armoured units for July 30th 1943:
7 g.A. - 27 g.armoured brigade, 201 armoured brigade, 167 and 262 detached armoured regiments - altogether 50 tanks.(shortage 116 tanks)
69 A. - 96 armoured brigade - 88 tanks.
53 A. - 1 mechanized corps, 34, 35 and 148 detached armoured regiments - altogether 260 tanks.(shortage 57 tanks)
On 17.08.43 1 MC had only 44 tanks, more than half were light tanks. (less that one armoured brigade. Central Archive of Defense Department, file. 409, inventory. 10057, doc. 283, pg. 301 - 302.)"

on the August 20 1943 the Soviet 53 A had the next tanks units:
148 TR had 6 tanks (Т-34 и Т-70)
61 TR - 6 KV-1с
35 TR - 9 мкII & мкIII
1548 self-propelled ArtReg. - 1 KV и 3 SU-152
1 мc- 43 Т-34 & Т-70

«The report on operations 5 Guards tank army» which is stored the Central Archive of Defense Department in Podolsk (CАDD of Russian Federation, file 332, inventory 4948, document 31):

«The execution of the task army has started at 9.00 21.08.1943г. The river crossings do not found in area Peresechnaja and Gavrilovka. Shooting units of 53 army operating in this area have not been provide even bridgehead on southern coast of the river of Udy for building the river crossings. The opponent, occupying heights on southern coast of the river of Udy, and infantry units with submachine guns directly behind a railway line subjected the powerful fire of the artillery and mortar to bombardment forwarded units of the 18 tank corps through found ford and an army advance party. During a crossing, as a result of bad reconnaissance, 15 tanks have got stuck in boggy river banks Udy, a part of tanks were undermined on mines… Only by 17.00 21.08.43г. parts 18 tank corps and an advance party of tank army have finished a crossing through the river of Udy and have started the task execution. The opponent renders the strong fire resistance since a boundary of heights to the south of the river Udy … With a dawn 22.08.43г. The 5 Guards mechanised corps has been entered into fight, It has received task to cross through the river Udy in area Peresechnaja and Gavrilovka till 6.00, blow in a direction of Korotich, Babai by an outcome of day to reach an area Babai and to bar the way a withdrawal of the Kharkov grouping of the opponent on the southwest …
By an outcome 22.08.43г. Parts of tank army have rushed in Korotich and have occupied it …
For the purpose of support of a withdrawal of the parts from Kharkov in a southwest direction, the opponent move closer up great strengths in area Korotich and as it has not been occupied by our infantry, the opponent attacked and has occupied it, having cut off advance parties of 5 g. MC and 18 TC … Attempts of the main forces 18 tank corps and 5 Guards mechanised corps to break out to the encircled, by the opponent have been repulsed.
During from 23 till 24.08.1943г. Army parts conducted fights on northern suburb of Korotich. Attempts to seize it had no success».
Result: «As a result of fights in area Korotich from 21.08 on 31.08.43. Army parts have losses - tanks T-34 - 114 units, tanks T-70 - 15 units, is killed 451 people, is wounded - 806 people» (Central Archive Department of Defense, file 5 g.TA, inventory 4948, document 31, pg 99).
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#19

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Sep 2016, 20:52

thanks for that, very insightful.

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DR at Mius.

#20

Post by EugE » 04 Sep 2016, 14:48

In addition to the aforesaid:
=Southern front had the next tanks composition on 28.07.43
unit ready for act./ under repair
6 g.tbr 19/20
32 g.tbr 19/12
22 ind. tr 16/13
7 g.ind.tr 9/-
2 g.MC 88/52
4 g.MC 61/88
33 g.tbr 7/21
1 g.ind.heavy tr 2/6
140 tbr 63/2
total 284/214
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#21

Post by Miles Krogfus » 04 Sep 2016, 20:56

Here is the Central Front's total July 1943 loss report:
Tanks/SU "shot" 1393, "burned out" 949, "blown up" 209, "damaged" 187, "technical" 127, "sunk" in bogs, mud 29, "evacuated" from the combat zone to Repair Depots 55.

July 5-20,1943 loss figures of its T34 tanks from a 1st Tank Army Report:
to artillery 65, mines 1, air attack 7, burned out 316, stuck, sunk in bogs, mud 5, technical 48.

The summary report from 2nd Guards Tank Corps for July 5-22,1943:
746 men killed, 1519 wounded, 345 missing.
T34 tank losses: 35 burned, 7 injured, 66 sent to short repair, 12 sent to medium repair, 49 evacuated from the combat zone to Repair Depots.
T70 tank losses: 31 burned, 1 injured, 5 sent to short repair, 1 sent to long repair, 22 evacuated from the combat zone to Repair Depots.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#22

Post by Miles Krogfus » 05 Sep 2016, 10:53

Vorschlagsliste Nr.20 for the RK, issued by Das Reich October 17,1943 for SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Albin von Reitzenstein, CO of the division's Panzer Regiment, states that between July 5,1943 and September 23,1943 his Regiment 839 tanks, 18 SU, 334 A-T guns and 32 artillery "abeschossen" while the Regiment suffered 57 Panzers "Totalausfalle."
Especially notable actions listed in the recommendation: on July 6th, fighting along with "Der Fuhrer" Rgt. it shot 81 near Lutschki. During combat on July 8th, fighting along with the 1SS Panzergruppe, it shot 53 tanks. Between July 30th to August 2nd at the Mius it shot 51, August 12th to the 16th it shot 73 near Bogoduchoff, and near Kolomak between September 12th to 14th it shot 60 tanks.
RK approved for Reitzenstein November 13,1943.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#23

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Sep 2016, 13:30

Thanks... That's 310 out of 800 for the PR.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#24

Post by EugE » 05 Sep 2016, 19:14

Miles thanks! I have one question to you - do you know when Das Reich Panzer Regiment units arrived under Kharkov in August 1943? I mean day.
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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#25

Post by GregSingh » 06 Sep 2016, 09:57

August 12th to the 16th it shot 73 near Bogoduchoff
Those battles deserve separate topic!

Soviet 112 Tank Brigade reported 46 T-34 and 4 T-70 available on 10th of August.
On the 16th only 7 T-34 and 3 T-70 available. But it's not clear how many were actually total write-offs.
Still nowhere near 73...
Do we know which Soviet tank units might fill the gap? I briefly looked at some other tank brigades there: 22, 200, 49 and 6 mrb; but they reported minimal losses. I might be missing something..
do you know when Das Reich Panzer Regiment units arrived under Kharkov in August 1943? I mean day
It was concentrating in the area NW of Kharkov from 7th-8th, but it seems it was engaged in battle from midday 11th.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#26

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Sep 2016, 16:16

Might not the 'gap' be explained by the routine deduction applied to all German kill claims? No unit I know ever reduced their crew claims by the 30-50% deduction used to get claims in line with actual kills.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#27

Post by Mark V. » 06 Sep 2016, 20:41

Hi Greg,

It was Totenkopf that fought against the units of the 6th Tank Corps. Das Reich was engaged at Bogodukhov against 3rd Mechanized and 31st Tank Corps, and later units of 5th Guards Tank Army.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#28

Post by Stiltzkin » 06 Sep 2016, 20:57

Might not the 'gap' be explained by the routine deduction applied to all German kill claims? No unit I know ever reduced their crew claims by the 30-50% deduction used to get claims in line with actual kills.
That was only done by the OKH.

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#29

Post by Michael Kenny » 06 Sep 2016, 21:06

Stiltzkin wrote: That was only done by the OKH.
Because it was known the kill claims were inflated

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Re: Why did the 2nd SS claim so many tank kills?

#30

Post by Stiltzkin » 06 Sep 2016, 21:25

Because it was known the kill claims were inflated
Yes. I do not trust any kill claim reports by single units without double checking them (by no side), especially not the SS, usually 3rd Reich propaganda. Now were they high? Surely, the war lasted for years and there were plenty of engagements (but not that high). Strangely, the high kill claims have been accepted, Wikipedia is still filled with those figures. Bergström accepted Hartmanns claims. The 30-50% reduction is usually reliable.

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