authoritative book on Panzer Divisions

[genstab]

Can anyone give me the title of a really authoritative book on the wartime history of the Panzer divisions? I need Army but one also covering the Waffen SS Panzer divisions would be nice to have also- probably too much to ask that they'd be in one volume. What I particularly need is a day by day location of each- the Corps commanding each or what reserve command or rebuilding area they may be in through the war and transfer dates.
I don't need the commanders- I pretty well have them down from other sources.

I am prepared to hear that there is no such book but one never knows until one tries. I have Stove's history in German but it isn't much help on the commands they were in or dates of transfer, and of course the OKH schematic O/Bs just give their locations once or twice a month (maybe three or four times from 1941 through 1943 but then in 1944-45 it gets pretty spotty). Trying to find their locations and transfers in the hectic last years of the war can be a really hard thing. Sure hope the only choice would be to get a book on the history of each! What have we, master military historians?

Best,
Bill in Cleveland

[hucks216]

Fire Brigades: The Panzer Divisions 1943-45 by Kamen Nevenkin - the only one I can think of that has them all in one book.

[genstab]

It's described as a mammoth book but I can't find out just what it has- every panzer division in all branches, but can you or someone who has it tell me if it covers every assignment in their histories giving their superior commands and transfer dates? I work with O/Bs and have a large manuscript at a publisher (which is taking forever to get published) but am working on updating it constantly from new information. The mobile divisions have always been my biggest problem to nail down, especially in fluid campaigns. Appreciate any help anyone can give on this.

Thanks for the first lead.

Best,
Bill in Cleveland (light snow so far)

[Gary Kennedy]

I would second the recommendation, but with the following qualifications.

It centres on the later war period, only really beginning from 1943. When you say does it give superior HQs, not in the manner laid out in the US ETO history for example. I've opened up my copy on the chapter for 4th Panzer-Division, which has the following sections. Combat history (just a paragraph really); Apr-Jun43 reconstruction, giving details of the rebuilding of the formation and some coming and going of units; then a few pages detailing the combats the Div took part in, roughly a page devoted to a period of say 4/5 months, likewise any time out of the line. For 4th Pz Div it comes to about 10 pages of text; there are no maps. The chapter then turns over to my area of interest, organisation of subunits within the Div, so a list of all Bns/Coys etc, both fighting and supply. You then get a summary of monthly armour deliveries, beginning May43, and covering SPWs, Armd Cars and tanks, but not I think SP artillery (excepting SP infantry guns). Finally two sets of tables; monthly condition reports as an overview, plus footnotes, then the Corps/Army/Army Group served under, by date. Very roughly an older Div might get 24 pages in total, the more phantom like formations maybe six.

There are also chapters on the evolution of the Pz Div, overall organisation (note there are no full KStN in here, just the vehicle figures and overall manpower authorised for subunits).

Hope that's some help.

Gary

[genstab]

Thanks a lot for that review, Gary. Can you tell me if the Corps or higher command reserves the division served under are detailed by date for the whole 1943-45 period, or just very general like by month or one date per month like Tessin's division histories?

Best,
Bill

[Jeff Leach]

'Fire Brigades' will probably give you all the equipment and organizational details you would want but you might find it not detailed enough on the questions of where the unit was and who it was subordinate too. Most of the panzer division KTBs for the period should be available (for free, just look at the different lists). Most KTBs give a summation of the division's controlling headquarters at the beginning of the war diary. I would refer to them before trusting the divisional histories. The location of the division headquarters is usually clearly given for the daily entries in the war diaries (just look for some variant of addreviation 'DivGefStd'.)

Unfortunately the divisional KTBs are almost all gone by the fall of 1943, with some only running to early 1942. If such cases you have to start looking at the corps and army records and that would be a major research project.

If you are only interested in 1943 - 1945, you might look at the Ost Lage maps avaialable online (1943 and 1945 are available) and John Calvin might have the western front maps online too. These would give the positions of the divisions and the most likely controlling headquarters.

[genstab]

I appreciate the information. That's pretty well what I have so far, aided by the NARA FMS Reports From German Officers. The book sounds like a fantastic resource but wouldn't give me quite what I had hoped for. Everything else about panzer divisions though. Thanks again, guys

Best,
Bill in Cleveland

[Dunnigan]

For the day to day location, or rather the month to month locations, you can get this via the Lexikon der Wehrmacht (http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... derung.htm).

Clicking on each division will give you its history and location and under whose command per month for the entire war.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Not really reliable....

Jan-Hendrik

[genstab]

I agree with Jan-Hendrik there. They're probably from Tessin who also lists division locations on just one day per month In his division histories and also under the Armies, with their subordinated Corps and their divisions listed for that one day per month. However, you have to know his little foibles. One such is that for his November 1944 O/Bs the date (given in the Army histories but not on the division pages) is 26 Nov, However, the locations on the Division history pages for November are from the 5 November OKH O/Bs (as printed in DIe Geheimen Tagesberichte), and for the December locations on the division histories he uses the 26 November OKH O/Bs. I'm not sure about the January ones- haven't checked them out but the 31 December OKH O/Bs, the only ones for that month, aren't too useful as representative monthly locations. He either used the 21 Jan or 26 Jan OKH O/Bs and I would suspect the 21 Jan ones. Appreciate any input from others who work with O/Bs.

Best regards,
Bill in Cleveland

[genstab]

Say Jeff, are of any of the places division KTBs can be downloaded simple to use like Sturmpanzer or do they require esoteric download programs that are going to give this techless guy fits? Where do I find them? Haven't been in the know about this.

Best,
Boill

[Jan-Hendrik]

Try

this Thread

Jan-Hendrik

[Jeff Leach]

I would looking at MapArchive (this is the divisions list)

As an example 6th Panzer Division, pull up the PDF of the NARA material and look down the list until you come to

Ia, Kriegstagebuch, ...

there are a number of entries covering the period Jun 1941 - Nov 1942 on rolls T315 R322 - R323 (if you see 'Karten' (maps) pick them up too). If you keep looking there is also a KTB for Nov 1942 - Jun 1943 on T315 R341 (most divisional KTBs end around the time of Kursk). There is also some information upto September 1944, which might be worth looking at.

I would guess that it would take about a day to get the subordination and position (if you are lucky this will be written in the margin of the daily entry or at the end of it) of the division on each day under that period. Now the last hurdle is matching up the position witten in the KTB to some modern map (personnally I use the US Army 1954 maps of the Soviet Union as a standard because I write in English but there are decent maps in English, German and Russian available (Mapster Pl is by far the best place to look for maps of Eastern Europe)). If you have some wartime maps of the divisions movements this is pretty easy job, if you don't it can be a lot of work.

The last step is to see if the NARA material is available.

1.) Use the SturmPanzer Search Tool. This tool is surprisingly accurate and probably misses only the latest purchases of NARA material.

2.) If they are available for 'free' check these two lists Jeff Leach or John C Calvin. John C Calvin's list is larger.

3.) Make a request on the Archives List

4.) As a last resort you can PM me with a list of NARA rolls you are looking for (I won't look for the roll number for you) and I'll try and help.

[genstab]

I really appreciate all the info, Jeff. I'm not used to working with maps and normally the ones I've seen don't show Corps boundaries (except for the ones in the US Army in WW2, ETO series) which I need for my O/B work. I have seen the US Twelfth Army Group day to day maps on the Library of Congress website and they can come in handy when magnified if I can't locate a German division at a particular time any other way (as long as it fell in the US zone of battle and not the British).

I've seen Mr.Calvin's list from Feldgrau but know nothing about using the downloading systems needed to get his. I'm not the most educated or adept computer person for sure. But I will check out the sources you listed and once again I deeply appreciate it.

Best,
Bill in Cleveland

[genstab]

Jan-Hendrik, thanks for passing on Jeff's post about the downloads. I appreciate it.

Best,
Bill in Cleveland