Where is this?

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PatrickBateman
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Where is this?

#1

Post by PatrickBateman » 15 Jan 2017, 22:43

Does anyone know where this is located? And what is it? A trainings camp?

Image

And second, if anyone could also help me out by telling me what text it is on that thing above his hand. I know it's hard to tell. I scanned the photo on a large size but it remains unsharp.

Image

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von thoma
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Re: Where is this?

#2

Post by von thoma » 15 Jan 2017, 23:03

SS-Übungslager-Dachau SS Training Camp, and Konzentrationslager.

"Adolf Hitler" cuff title in Sütterlin script.
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PatrickBateman
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Re: Where is this?

#3

Post by PatrickBateman » 16 Jan 2017, 10:16

Thank you.

I never knew there was a trainings camp at the Dachau concentration camp. What kind of trainings camp was it? For the Waffen-SS/military?

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von thoma
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Re: Where is this?

#4

Post by von thoma » 16 Jan 2017, 23:35

What kind of trainings camp was it ? For the Waffen-SS/military ?
The SS-Übungslager at Dachau was a training center where members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände
were taught to be concentration camp administrators.
They wore this special right collar patch.
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Max
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Re: Where is this?

#5

Post by Max » 17 Jan 2017, 03:39

von thoma wrote: "Adolf Hitler" cuff title in Sütterlin script.Image
Makes you wonder if Hitler was known by some [ eg the Wagner grandchildren] as Uncle Wolf because of the way the name Adolf looks when written in Sütterlin script.
Just a thought.
Cheers

Edit
I've just remembered that the name Adolf is derived from the old High German for noble wolf so the Sütterlin idea is just a co-incidence.
Oh well....
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

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Re: Where is this?

#6

Post by PatrickBateman » 17 Jan 2017, 17:32

von thoma wrote:
What kind of trainings camp was it ? For the Waffen-SS/military ?
The SS-Übungslager at Dachau was a training center where members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände
were taught to be concentration camp administrators.
They wore this special right collar patch.

SS-Training Camp.jpg
Thanks for the info, but I'm a bit shocked actually, because as far as I know the 'owner' of the photo who is in the picture with his company (I have cut that out) wasn't a member of the SS-Totenkopfverbände. Was there no training for Waffen-SS soldiers? Or were they just visiting the place?

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Re: Where is this?

#7

Post by j keenan » 18 Jan 2017, 20:49

PatrickBateman wrote:
von thoma wrote:
What kind of trainings camp was it ? For the Waffen-SS/military ?
The SS-Übungslager at Dachau was a training center where members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände
were taught to be concentration camp administrators.
They wore this special right collar patch.

SS-Training Camp.jpg
Thanks for the info, but I'm a bit shocked actually, because as far as I know the 'owner' of the photo who is in the picture with his company (I have cut that out) wasn't a member of the SS-Totenkopfverbände. Was there no training for Waffen-SS soldiers? Or were they just visiting the place?
It was also used for military training by the Waffen-SS

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Georg_S
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Re: Where is this?

#8

Post by Georg_S » 18 Jan 2017, 20:52

von thoma wrote:
What kind of trainings camp was it ? For the Waffen-SS/military ?
The SS-Übungslager at Dachau was a training center where members of the SS-Totenkopfverbände
were taught to be concentration camp administrators.
They wore this special right collar patch.

SS-Training Camp.jpg
I am sorry but is TOTALLY wrong! The Übungslager was an ordinary training ground for soldiers, as we can see all over the world.
You can see the similiar sign at SS-Standort Weimar / Buchenwald.

At the trainingsground of SS-Standorte Dachau did the SS-Totenkopf Standarte "Oberbayern" get their military training. Later SS-Totenkopf Infanteri Regiment 1 "Oberbayern" later part of the 3.SS.Pz.Div. "Totenkopf" The Übungslager in Dachau also was called among the SS Soldiers "Prittelbach" and the Übungslager in Weimar / Buchenwald called "Ettersberg" I must admit that the trainingground at Oranienburg is unknown to me.

At Dachau you had a school for officers who would be part of Wirtschaft und Versorgungsunits or head office under Oswald Pohl.

When soldiers become part of the Standarte Oberbayern or Thüringen (Weimar / Buchenwald) the had an 4 week rout which meant 3 weeks military training and 1 week guardduty (guarding the fences of the Camp) as they wasn´t part of the Kommendatur (Camp officials such as Blockführer, Kommandoführer, Rapportführer, Schutzhaftlagerführer etc) who was the only one who had the responsibility to what happened inside the fences.
Sometimes SS-T.St. soldiers could become part of an "Kommando" which meant that they guarded prisoners when they did work outside the camp, but still under supervision of an Kommandoführer, who often was an Blockführer from the camp and Kommendantur.

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Re: Where is this?

#9

Post by von thoma » 19 Jan 2017, 07:16

Are you trying to separate SS military ( SS-Totenkopfverbände ), of the Konzentrationslager personnel in this place ?
Because that really only happens on the sign post above shown....In this particular case the fringe is very narrow.
In June 1937, the questions arise as to whether or not personnel of SS economic enterprises ( SS-Wirtschaftbetriebe ) were subordinate to
the commandant of the training camp Dachau. It was decided that they were, and so they automatically became part of commandant's staff.
Nothing to do with military or tactical issues.
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Re: Where is this?

#10

Post by j keenan » 19 Jan 2017, 07:55

There were military cources held at Dachau which have nothing to do with the concentration camp side of things.

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Georg_S
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Re: Where is this?

#11

Post by Georg_S » 19 Jan 2017, 08:40

von thoma wrote:Are you trying to separate SS military ( SS-Totenkopfverbände ), of the Konzentrationslager personnel in this place ?
Because that really only happens on the sign post above shown...
Not at all but you claimed that the "Übungslager" had the purpose to train the SS-T.St. to become administrative personell to the Camp, which I answered to. The SS-TV had some different task beside beside guarding the Camps. And as organisation the SS-TV and the administrative staff of the Camp are separated. The order from Hitler for the SS-TV was that they could be used as a taskforce within the German Police or other task there might be, the SS-TV had some pure military tsak as part of the Anschluss and when Sudetenland become part of Germany. They was even part of the attack on Poland in 1939, even if they wasn´t at the peak of the invasion.

The Übungslager gave the SS-TV oportunity to train for those military tasks, there are tons of photos showing SS-TV in those trainingares as in Dachau and Weimar/Buchenwald. I have a lot of those photos from the SS-Btl "Nürnberg" who was for a long time stationed at the SS-Compound "Prittlach" as they said. But was the SS-Standort Dachau

But I admit that it´s a huge difference between the SS-TV in 1934 and the SS-TV in 1938/1939. A very complex history, but in my opinion it´s very wrong to claim that the Übungslager was to train the soldiers for "Administrative duties in the Concentration camps" And it´s also a fact that the member of the SS-T.-Standarte Oberbayern, Thüringen and Brandenburg had nothing to do with the condition within the Camps (Dachau, Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen). The responsibility for that you had to be part of the KL Kommendantur, which was another part of the SS-TV. As I wrote earlier you had to be either - Blockführer, Kommandoführer, Rapportführer, Schutzhaftlagerführer (1,2 or 3) or Kommendant. But then you had men who had other responsibilities such as Leiter (leader) for the Carpenting, Crematorium, etc. To understand more of this you have to understand how a camp was organiced such as - Kommendantur (KL Staff), Schutzhaftlager (the Camp), Politische Abteilung (responcibility for the RSHA) in other words the Camp Gestapo, Krankenrevier (Doctors) and the Wachsturmbanne etc.

There are tons of books dealing with this matter I can´t recommend just one as I almost could put up my entire archive with atleast 1000 books about the SS, KL and Waffen-SS

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Re: Where is this?

#12

Post by von thoma » 19 Jan 2017, 10:19

O.K Georg_S.

I don't have a very good concept of Totenkopf units, and of Dachau facilities in general.

An old thread with the same subject : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=162395
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Re: Where is this?

#13

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 20 Jan 2017, 04:08

Additional information:

from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23317

The SS complex at Dachau (SS- not government) was refurbished in 1937-38 and administratively divided into a "training camp" (Übungslager) and a "protective custody camp" (Schutzhaftlager) - the latter being commonly referred to as the concentration camp, or KZ (aka "KL"). The protective custody camp was a 300x600 metre rectangle with barracks built for 6,000 inmates surrounded by a moat, guard towers and barbed wire. Immediately east of the KZ, across the moat, was the training camp, which was a triangular shape about 4 times the size of the KZ. The training camp included barracks for men and villas for SS officers, the camp commandant's office, a shooting range, a hospital, and administrative and payroll offices. During the war the SS added warehouses and workshops to the training area, when the inmates worked to manufacture W-SS uniforms and insignia (collar tabs, etc.) Northeast of the KZ was the plantage or "herb garden" where the inmates toiled in the fields.


from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=76611

Issue #27 of the UK WWII history magazine After the Battle reproduces an annotated arial photograph of the Dachau KZ/TWL area.


The book Dachau 29 April 1945 has a replica of a Jan.1943 SS map of the complex. The original map in in the Hoover Institute collections at Stanford, CA. …

All buildings at the Dachau SS installation were identified with a number. The Hoover Institute also has a typewritten sheet of labels for each of the buildings. (e.g Building #125 = Jourhaus, #167 = Tower B, etc.)

Basically, the top left of the complex was the SS hospital and the W-SS/WVHA Administrative school, in the middle was the Prafix factories, the porcelain works, armaments workshops, the butchery, the W-SS ordnance school and barracks.

The southernmost area is SS officer housing; bisected by the "Street of the SS".

The railway branch split - one track going to the power plant by the SS hospital, the other branching eastward and ending at buildings #101 and #86 directly in front of the street to the KZ.

Immediately west of the KZ compound were the SS clothing factories where KZ inmate labor manufactured W-SS clothing and equipment. Dachau was a major clothing depot for the Waffen-SS, and when US troops liberated the facility on April 29th, 1945, they found literally thousands and thousands of SS collar tabs, insignia, cufftitles, etc. In fact "from Dachau stores" is a phrase used by scrupulous militaria dealers to establish the bone fides of the material they're trying to sell. It is also a phrase used by the unscrupulous dealers to unload their SS fakes make in Pakistan in 2001!

Not shown in the map you postage are the "plantage" - where many of the KZ prisoners worked, and the SS firing range at Herbertshausen (where many of them were shot) and westward to the Leiten mass grave site (where many of them were buried)

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Re: Where is this?

#14

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 20 Jan 2017, 04:26

Additional information:

Camp/Troop Training Ground Dachau
a list of units stationed at the Dachau SS installation in addition to the 5 departments of the KZ staff. These units are compiled from Kurt Mehner’s Die Waffen-SS und Polizei 1939-45

From the SS-FHA listing of SS units for Dachau
April 24, 1941 – (

KL mit SS-Totenkopfsturmbann (4 kp.)
(i.e. 4 companies of SS Death’s Head concentration camp guards)

Heimatverw. d. SS-T division
(Home Administration office, 3rd SS Division "Death’s Head" – commander is listed as SS-Oberstubaf. Hans Eichele - this is the unit mentioned in, for example, Syndor's Soldiers of Destruction)

The 3rd SS Panzer division "Totenkopf" got it’s start from the SS-TK troops formed to guard the Dachau KZ in 1936. The SS-TK units were formed by"Papa" Theodor Eicke, the second commander of Dachau since June 1933, the first overall Inspector of Concentration Camps (1934) and later the commander of the SS-TK units and the 3rd SS Panzer Division. Eicke, a rabid anti-Semite and National Socialist, codifed the regulations governing both SS personnel and inmates and worked hard to develop in his troops a ruthless attitude towards the "enemy behind the wire." Eicke’s contribution to National Socialism also consisted of a) developing a whole spawn of SS KZ commanders who originally sprung from the ranks of his SS-TK troops and b) developing the "Dachau school" of labor, in which labor was more punishment than a method of economic production – a "school" that caused the WVHA a lot of headaches when they wanted inmates to stop pounding nails into sand and start assembling 88mm shells.

The division, which earned a reputation as competent and fanatic combat troops, kept an administrative office in their old headquarters to handle personnel, pay and administrative issues for the unit.
It was, essentially, the "Totenkopf" HR (human resources) department.


Of all the 38-odd divisions of the W-SS, the highest number of SS KZ officers served 3rd SS "Totenkopf" – 159. (see French MacLean’s The Camp Men)


SS-Verw Ers. Abt. i..e Ers. Abt. der SS-Verv D. Dachau
(SS Administrative Replacement Detachment – note in the June 1943 SS-FHA listing this unit is listed under "Economics Dept. –)

SS-Standort-Kdtr (SS Garrison HQ)

SS-Hauptzeugamt (Main office?)

Sanitätsschule der Waffen-SS, Dachau
(Armed-SS Medical School - note: similar schools in Berlin & Prague)

SS-Lazarettabteilung
(SS Field Hospital Detachment – note: similar unit at Buchenwald)
Dr. Rascher wasn’t part of the protective custody staff but has is own "practice" at the SS medical facilities at Dachau.



GuV Prüfstelle
(? Inspection Station – probably Audit/Accounting Office)

Bekleidungswerk der Waffen-SS (Waffen-SS Clothing Works)

Beschaffungsstelle der Waffen-SS - Waffen-SS Procurement Office

Wirtschaftsinspektion der W-SS "Süd"
(Waffen-SS Economics Inspection – note: located "Munich-Dachau")

SS-Standortverwaltung (SS-Garrison Administration office)

SS-Verwaltungsschule
(SS Administrative School - 1941-42 commander SS-Staf. Johannes Baier)

June 1943 SS-FHA listing:

Waffentechnische Lehranstalt der SS (Technical Arms Demonstration Section)

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Re: Where is this?

#15

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 20 Jan 2017, 04:32

The SS installation at Dachau was in summary, a massive facility for all SS departments - concentration camp, Waffen-SS, General-SS, etc.

In the late prewar/early war years SS officer school graduates assigned to the Waffen-SS would take their Platoon Leader's Course at Dachau.

Here's a compiled list of the buildings/facilities at Dachau (it's a long list):
  • Administration Barracks - Dachau SS Hospital
    Air raid shelter
    Archives
    Armory
    Bandsaw Shed
    Barber and stockrooms
    Barrack (crematorium)
    Barracks, SS-Officer's School for Administration Services (12 buildings)
    Barracks: Hitler Youth apprentices & [officers?]
    Bathtubs for officers & NCOs
    Beet Cellar
    Bicycle storage shed
    Boiler room[?] and underground coal storage
    Building inspection South Empire, switchboard, guard
    Cafeteria #3 and training halls
    Camouflage Department
    Camp barrack
    Camp hall
    Canopy
    Canteen
    Canteen Administration Stockrooms (2 buildings)
    Canteen I salesroom
    Carpenter's workshop (2 buildings)
    Central Office storeroom (9 locations)
    Changeover Switch Station
    Chicken coop
    Clothing Works
    Clothing Works rooms (2)
    Coal cellar
    Coal cellar (2)
    Coal yard (5)
    Coal Yard for District Heating Plant
    Commandant's Building
    Condenser[?] for district heating plant
    Crematorium
    Cutting Area
    Dachau SS Hospital, "sister" accomodation
    Dachau SS Hospital, Air raid shelter
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept I a
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept I b
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept I c
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept II b
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept II c
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept II d
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept III
    Dachau SS Hospital, Dept. II a
    Dachau SS Hospital, HNO(?) Dept
    Dachau SS Hospital, Mortuary
    Dachau SS Hospital, Pharmacy
    Dachau SS Hospital, Physician Housing
    Dachau SS Hospital, UvD, Dentist office, Kitchen & Darkroom
    Department II a
    Disinfection station
    District barrack
    District Heating Plant
    Dog Kennels
    Dr. Fahrenkamp's plant nursery
    East Gate Watch Room
    Exhaust station
    First floor, center & right: bakery "Deutsche Lebensmittel"
    Fish ponds (4)
    Fox pen
    Garage: Weapons workshops
    Garages (14)
    Garages, Waffen-SS Clothing Works
    Gas & Discharge Chamber
    Gas Protection Channel
    Gas Service Stations (4)
    Gas units
    Gatekeeper's House - Dachau SS Hospital
    Goose coop
    Greenhouses (4)
    Gym and Stadium
    Hay barns (2)
    Horse Stalls
    Housekeepers Lounge
    Instruction Barracks
    Jail
    Jail garden
    Kitchens (4)
    Leader home (forest casino)
    Loibl laboratory
    Loibl laboratory
    Long Wing 1st floor front and back
    Long wing basement front
    Mail and Secret State Police Building
    Military Hospital building for prisoners
    NCO quarters
    North Side Riding School
    Northern Gate Apartment
    Nurses Housing - Dachau SS Hospital
    Office building, guardroom
    Officer barracks (5)
    Officer quarters
    Officer quarters for the Central Construction command of the Waffen-SS and Police
    Officer rooms
    Oil room
    Painting area
    Parking and storage, Waffen-SS Clothing Works (2)
    Pig Pens (3)
    Plantage
    Porcelain Manufacturing
    Porcelain Manufacturing
    Post Office
    Potato & herb storehouse
    Potato Cellar
    Präzifix Factory (Machine Rooms) (10)
    Prisoner barracks (30)
    Rabbit Hutches
    Radio room (station?)
    Rec room
    Southern Empire Construction Inspection Planning Agency
    Sports Equipment storage
    SS Ordnance training department (4)
    SS Ordnance training department (toilet)
    SS Weapons Technology Institute (I.e. ordnance training dept)
    SS-Hospital Laundry
    SS-WBD butcher shop
    Stables and Apartments
    Storeroom (laboratory workshop RFSS)
    Swan pond
    Tailor's workshop
    Toilet (underground)
    Traders' Hall
    Training kitchen for SS Officers' School Administration Dept.
    Troop ("crew room?") barracks (6)
    Waffen-SS Barracks (7 buildings)
    Waffen-SS Clothing Works
    Waffen-SS Medical Inspection, G.u.V. Inspection Station with the Dachau SS Hospital
    Watch HQ
    Watch towers (6)
    Water tower
    Water pump station
    Women's Ward - Dachau SS Hospital
    Wood stockroom (canopy)
    Worker's barracks (5)
    Workers Kitchen & Cafeteria
    Workshop (locksmith)

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