mutiny
-
- Member
- Posts: 3639
- Joined: 13 Jul 2002, 04:51
- Location: Malaysia
There are some mutiny in the 13. Waffen-Grenadier-Division "Handschar" where some german officers were shot..
go to http://www.wssob.com
it is a very good website in Waffen-SS. Perhaps you can find some info on mutiny
go to http://www.wssob.com
it is a very good website in Waffen-SS. Perhaps you can find some info on mutiny
The Handjar mutiny happened in Villeneuve sur Lot, in South France. There is a book on the subject. Google mentions some documents on the subject
There was also a mutiny of Georgian in 1945 in Holland. I do not have details
Numerous units of osttruppen deserted also during the retreat from south and central france, joining the french partisan or saying they wanted to join the red forces. Usually this was done by individuals or small groups.
But I do not think that, except for individuals having prepared their passover by allied troops, and wishing to be made POW, any real case of mutiny can be cited from german units. Risks were too hight, the hanging of deserters having been largely practised even in April 1945.
There was also a mutiny of Georgian in 1945 in Holland. I do not have details
Numerous units of osttruppen deserted also during the retreat from south and central france, joining the french partisan or saying they wanted to join the red forces. Usually this was done by individuals or small groups.
But I do not think that, except for individuals having prepared their passover by allied troops, and wishing to be made POW, any real case of mutiny can be cited from german units. Risks were too hight, the hanging of deserters having been largely practised even in April 1945.
-
- Host - Foreign volunteers section
- Posts: 769
- Joined: 13 Aug 2002, 22:39
- Location: United States
Hi Guys -
This topic is an interest of mine. There were mutinies in several German units during the war. Most (but not all) took place in foreign volunteer units.
- The first Handschar mutiny occurred in Villefranche de Rouergue on 17 September 1943 within SS-Geb.Pi.Btl. 13. An infiltrated communist agent started the affair and several German officers were murdered. The mutiny was quelled within hours by elements of the battalion loyal to the Germans and order was quickly restored.
- The second Handschar mutiny occured on 21 October 1944 within the Div.Stabs-Jäger-Kompanie. The men simply deserted en masse. The Germans managed to contact the mutineers but the latter refused to return to the division. They later joined the Partisans.
- A mutiny occured in the SS-Division "Kama" on 17 October 1944. The division commander quickly regained control of the unit. One German officer was allegedly murdered.
- A brutal mutiny occurred within two battalions of the 30th SS Division on 27 August 1944 in France. The Russians, Ukrainains, and Poles who belonged to the unit no longer wanted to serve with the SS so they murdered over 200 Germans and deserted to the Allies. The French organized them as a new battalion within the Foreign Legion's 13e Demi Brigade and they fought on the Allied side until the capitulation. The men were returned to the Soviet Union after the war and sent to the Gulag!
- The Georgian mutiny took place in the Netherlands on the island of Texel in March 1945. The Georgians refused to fight the Western Allies and murdered their German officers. The mutiny was quelled although some Georgians survived.
- There was a mutiny within the 36. SS-Division (popularly known as the Sondereinheit "Dirlewanger") and a regiment commander was lynched by former concentration camp inmates who had been released and sent to the unit as replacements. A mass desertion took place in Hungary in December 1944.
- There was a small mutiny in the Dutch 34. SS-Division in 1945. There are several specialists on the Dutch SS who frequent this forum and Feldgrau.net who know more.
***While conducting research on other topics, I learned of several other incidents. Unfortunately, I neglected to record the citations of where these documents were filed, so it will take a lot of work to find them again. Perhaps someone here knows more***:
- In the "Kasche Nachlass," i.e. the personal papers of Envoy Siegfried Kasche, the German ambassador to Croatia, there was a mutiny in the Dutch SS Brigade when it was in Yugoslavia in 1943. Kasche stated that 250 Dutch SS men deserted en masse to the Partisans. I have consulted several experts on the Dutch SS on this matter and we have been unable to find any further details.
- In an American microfilm guide to Himmler's papers (U.S. National Archives Microcopy T-175), there is a reference to a mutiny that took place in a German infantry regiment in Russia. Unfortunately, I didn't record the location. Does anyone know something about it?
Best regards,
George Lepre
This topic is an interest of mine. There were mutinies in several German units during the war. Most (but not all) took place in foreign volunteer units.
- The first Handschar mutiny occurred in Villefranche de Rouergue on 17 September 1943 within SS-Geb.Pi.Btl. 13. An infiltrated communist agent started the affair and several German officers were murdered. The mutiny was quelled within hours by elements of the battalion loyal to the Germans and order was quickly restored.
- The second Handschar mutiny occured on 21 October 1944 within the Div.Stabs-Jäger-Kompanie. The men simply deserted en masse. The Germans managed to contact the mutineers but the latter refused to return to the division. They later joined the Partisans.
- A mutiny occured in the SS-Division "Kama" on 17 October 1944. The division commander quickly regained control of the unit. One German officer was allegedly murdered.
- A brutal mutiny occurred within two battalions of the 30th SS Division on 27 August 1944 in France. The Russians, Ukrainains, and Poles who belonged to the unit no longer wanted to serve with the SS so they murdered over 200 Germans and deserted to the Allies. The French organized them as a new battalion within the Foreign Legion's 13e Demi Brigade and they fought on the Allied side until the capitulation. The men were returned to the Soviet Union after the war and sent to the Gulag!
- The Georgian mutiny took place in the Netherlands on the island of Texel in March 1945. The Georgians refused to fight the Western Allies and murdered their German officers. The mutiny was quelled although some Georgians survived.
- There was a mutiny within the 36. SS-Division (popularly known as the Sondereinheit "Dirlewanger") and a regiment commander was lynched by former concentration camp inmates who had been released and sent to the unit as replacements. A mass desertion took place in Hungary in December 1944.
- There was a small mutiny in the Dutch 34. SS-Division in 1945. There are several specialists on the Dutch SS who frequent this forum and Feldgrau.net who know more.
***While conducting research on other topics, I learned of several other incidents. Unfortunately, I neglected to record the citations of where these documents were filed, so it will take a lot of work to find them again. Perhaps someone here knows more***:
- In the "Kasche Nachlass," i.e. the personal papers of Envoy Siegfried Kasche, the German ambassador to Croatia, there was a mutiny in the Dutch SS Brigade when it was in Yugoslavia in 1943. Kasche stated that 250 Dutch SS men deserted en masse to the Partisans. I have consulted several experts on the Dutch SS on this matter and we have been unable to find any further details.
- In an American microfilm guide to Himmler's papers (U.S. National Archives Microcopy T-175), there is a reference to a mutiny that took place in a German infantry regiment in Russia. Unfortunately, I didn't record the location. Does anyone know something about it?
Best regards,
George Lepre
While doing some research on the “Norway in WWII” forum, several respondents mentioned the so-called Signaldalen Mutiny in the 6th Mountain Division. This account was provided by a respondent who cited the book Til befolkningen! Brannhösten 1944 – gjenreisingen etterpå by Anders Ole Hauglid and Knut Erik Jensen (Universitetsforlaget AS, Tromsø-Oslo-Bergen-Stavanger, Norway, 1985).
On 27 April 1945, the Republic of Austria was proclaimed with Karl Renner of the Socialist Party named the president and chancellor of the provisional Austrian government. In early May, he broadcasted a message that all Austrian soldiers of the German Armed Forces were to surrender. The broadcast was heard by the soldiers in the 4th Battery of Mountain Artillery Regiment 118 based near Signaldalen. Oberst Josef Remold, the division commander, immediately issued the order: “6th Mountain Division do not obey this order, and do not capitulate. It is strictly forbidden to listen to the radio. The German salute is to be used! Oberst Remold. Heil Hitler!”
However, the artillerymen of the 4th Battery killed their officers, Hauptmann Dirmbacher and Oberleutnant Fromm, and led by Obergefreiter Bruckner, they split into two groups, one of 48 men, and one of 11 men. The large group reached Sweden where they were interned while the smaller group was captured by the Germans. On 9 May 1945, four of the 11 mutineers were executed upon the approval of the death sentence imposed by General der Gebirgstruppe Ferdinand Jodl, the Commander-in-Chief of Army Detachment “Narvik.”
I would welcome further information on this incident. I wonder what the KTBs of the 6th Mountain Division and Army Detachment “Narvik” say about this mutiny.
Regards,
Shawn
On 27 April 1945, the Republic of Austria was proclaimed with Karl Renner of the Socialist Party named the president and chancellor of the provisional Austrian government. In early May, he broadcasted a message that all Austrian soldiers of the German Armed Forces were to surrender. The broadcast was heard by the soldiers in the 4th Battery of Mountain Artillery Regiment 118 based near Signaldalen. Oberst Josef Remold, the division commander, immediately issued the order: “6th Mountain Division do not obey this order, and do not capitulate. It is strictly forbidden to listen to the radio. The German salute is to be used! Oberst Remold. Heil Hitler!”
However, the artillerymen of the 4th Battery killed their officers, Hauptmann Dirmbacher and Oberleutnant Fromm, and led by Obergefreiter Bruckner, they split into two groups, one of 48 men, and one of 11 men. The large group reached Sweden where they were interned while the smaller group was captured by the Germans. On 9 May 1945, four of the 11 mutineers were executed upon the approval of the death sentence imposed by General der Gebirgstruppe Ferdinand Jodl, the Commander-in-Chief of Army Detachment “Narvik.”
I would welcome further information on this incident. I wonder what the KTBs of the 6th Mountain Division and Army Detachment “Narvik” say about this mutiny.
Regards,
Shawn
-
- Member
- Posts: 1583
- Joined: 01 Aug 2002, 04:11
- Location: ITALY
I can add the mutiny of italian ANR pilots against Luftwaffe's anschluss following the Operation "Phoenix" leaded by General Von Richtofen. This fact happened in RSI (Italian Northern Fascist Republic), during October-November 1944. All ANR "Gruppi Caccia" (JGs) desbanded after firing their planes: a lot of "fascist" pilots joined loyalist partisans. Only the direct "show down" of Mussolini directly to Hitler stopped this violent riot and ANR units were rebuilt asap.
-
- Host - Foreign volunteers section
- Posts: 769
- Joined: 13 Aug 2002, 22:39
- Location: United States
Hi Guys -
Here is some additional information to my posting:
Landstorm Nederland mutiny - Four Dutch SS men in 7th Company, SS-Freiw.Rgt. 84 planned to kill their squad leader and desert to the British. Their plan was discovered and the four plotters were executed on 9 March 1945.
Kocjo: Regarding the mass desertion in the 31st SS-Div., the best source on this is of course Rudi Pencz, whose book about the division is about the only available source on the subject. Pencz actually interviewed one of the deserters. The man stated that Josef Öhl was an Oberscharfuehrer, i.e. an NCO, and not an officer. The exact number of deserters was 29, not 55, anf they were Volksdeutsche from the Banat, not the Sudentenland. The men were assigned to the Nachrichtenzug, Stabsbatterie, SS-Art. Rgt. 31. He also said that when the war ended, the Communists felt they couldn't trust these men so they were held as POWs. The survivors were not released until 1951.
Best regards,
George Lepre
Here is some additional information to my posting:
Landstorm Nederland mutiny - Four Dutch SS men in 7th Company, SS-Freiw.Rgt. 84 planned to kill their squad leader and desert to the British. Their plan was discovered and the four plotters were executed on 9 March 1945.
Kocjo: Regarding the mass desertion in the 31st SS-Div., the best source on this is of course Rudi Pencz, whose book about the division is about the only available source on the subject. Pencz actually interviewed one of the deserters. The man stated that Josef Öhl was an Oberscharfuehrer, i.e. an NCO, and not an officer. The exact number of deserters was 29, not 55, anf they were Volksdeutsche from the Banat, not the Sudentenland. The men were assigned to the Nachrichtenzug, Stabsbatterie, SS-Art. Rgt. 31. He also said that when the war ended, the Communists felt they couldn't trust these men so they were held as POWs. The survivors were not released until 1951.
Best regards,
George Lepre
- K.Kocjancic
- Member
- Posts: 6788
- Joined: 27 Mar 2003, 20:57
- Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Thanks for the new info!GeorgeLepre wrote: Kocjo: Regarding the mass desertion in the 31st SS-Div., the best source on this is of course Rudi Pencz, whose book about the division is about the only available source on the subject. Pencz actually interviewed one of the deserters. The man stated that Josef Öhl was an Oberscharfuehrer, i.e. an NCO, and not an officer. The exact number of deserters was 29, not 55, anf they were Volksdeutsche from the Banat, not the Sudentenland. The men were assigned to the Nachrichtenzug, Stabsbatterie, SS-Art. Rgt. 31. He also said that when the war ended, the Communists felt they couldn't trust these men so they were held as POWs. The survivors were not released until 1951.
Best regards,
George Lepre
Muntiny or Defection, i guess they mean the same.
Can anyone help me out here? There was a german pilot, who defected to the British. He flew to Britain the latest german nightfighter( with of course the latest radar). what was his name? and what was his fate postwar?
http://home.earthlink.net/~rsns01/graph ... 0_1_th.jpg
Can anyone help me out here? There was a german pilot, who defected to the British. He flew to Britain the latest german nightfighter( with of course the latest radar). what was his name? and what was his fate postwar?
http://home.earthlink.net/~rsns01/graph ... 0_1_th.jpg
Dutch SS Mutiny in Yugoslavia
If no trace could be found of 250 Dutch mutineers in Yugoslavia, should one assume that this was one of those rumours that abound in war, that happened to reach Kaschke? Or might this really have happened unnoticed by history?George Lepre wrote: - In the "Kasche Nachlass," i.e. the personal papers of Envoy Siegfried Kasche, the German ambassador to Croatia, there was a mutiny in the Dutch SS Brigade when it was in Yugoslavia in 1943. Kasche stated that 250 Dutch SS men deserted en masse to the Partisans. I have consulted several experts on the Dutch SS on this matter and we have been unable to find any further details.
If this happened, it was presumably in late 1943 when SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Brigade "Nederland” was deployed in Croatia?
-
- Member
- Posts: 3639
- Joined: 13 Jul 2002, 04:51
- Location: Malaysia
Re: mutiny
Sorry to resurrect an old topic there is also a mutiny of the SD unit Druzhina SS Brigade led by ex-Soviet lieutenant colonel Vladimir Gil-Rodionov who re-defected back to Soviet partisans in 1942. Several German officers & men were murdered by the defectors but at least a company of the Russians stay loyal to the Germans and fought to retreat back to the German lines
Antonio Munoz's work Druzhina SS Brigade as well Robert W. Stephan's work on Soviet counterintelligence against the Germans has snippets of info on this incident.
Stephan reasoned that the fact Gil-Rodionov wasn't punished by Stalin as compare to ex-Soviet collaborators who re-defected reinforced the view that Gil-Rodionov was a Soviet agent inserted as a German collaborator.
Perhaps there are reports on Gil-Rodionov & the Druzhina SS Brigade in the archives of Russian Federation that has yet to be found or declassified
Antonio Munoz's work Druzhina SS Brigade as well Robert W. Stephan's work on Soviet counterintelligence against the Germans has snippets of info on this incident.
Stephan reasoned that the fact Gil-Rodionov wasn't punished by Stalin as compare to ex-Soviet collaborators who re-defected reinforced the view that Gil-Rodionov was a Soviet agent inserted as a German collaborator.
Perhaps there are reports on Gil-Rodionov & the Druzhina SS Brigade in the archives of Russian Federation that has yet to be found or declassified
Re: mutiny
Thanks Panzermahn to resurrect this old thread. In general, I want to say that there is a big difference between a mutiny and a defection or desertion.
A mutiny happens when a military unit (but also a merchant ship crew, for example) refuses to obey orders. Not necessarily a mutiny becomes a defection, that is more properly the act of joining the forces of the enemy and still different is a desertion, the act of leaving without authorization someone's unit. Historically, most deserters don't become defectors but simply try to slip away from the dangers of the war and survive in some way, often becoming a POW. Defectors want to carry on the fight but dressing the uniform of the enemy, for ideological, political, ethnical or whatever reason.
Very often mutiny happens due to poor living conditions, poor food, late arrival of wages, murderous/unacceptable or senseless orders, disregard of officers or even political reasons. In general a mutiny aims to improve the conditions of the soldiers or crew and to negotiate a new "deal" between mutineers and officers/commanders/leaders.
A mutiny happens when a military unit (but also a merchant ship crew, for example) refuses to obey orders. Not necessarily a mutiny becomes a defection, that is more properly the act of joining the forces of the enemy and still different is a desertion, the act of leaving without authorization someone's unit. Historically, most deserters don't become defectors but simply try to slip away from the dangers of the war and survive in some way, often becoming a POW. Defectors want to carry on the fight but dressing the uniform of the enemy, for ideological, political, ethnical or whatever reason.
Very often mutiny happens due to poor living conditions, poor food, late arrival of wages, murderous/unacceptable or senseless orders, disregard of officers or even political reasons. In general a mutiny aims to improve the conditions of the soldiers or crew and to negotiate a new "deal" between mutineers and officers/commanders/leaders.