LSSAH in the battle of Radomysl November 1943

[daredevil]

I NEED INFORMATION ( UNITS INVOLVED, TANKS DESTROYED AND A MUCH POSSIBLE EXTENDED ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED ) ABOUT THIS BATTLE. I KNOW THAT PEIPER PANZER REGIMENT TOOK PART,THEY INFILTRATED 40KMS ON SOVIET REAR AND 4 SOVIET DIVISIONS GOT AWAY.NOTHING ELSE.

[JC]

Panzer Battles , by F.W. von Mellenthin, and Die Leibstandarte III , by Rudolf Lehmann, both have coverage of this combat.

BR...........JC

[daredevil]

for me it is not possible to get these books. any info will be thanked and wellcome .

[Dutto1]

Hi

Iwill give you info on the battle tell me what you want exactly and i will do my best.

Regards

Ron

[daredevil]

thanks a lot , if you can just a brief story of what happened and why was so important in the situation of the front .

[Dutto1]

Hi

daredevil sorry for the long wait on the Radomyshl action time has been taken with christmas and other business i will have a good account on here for you in the next 7 days
Regards

Dutto1

[Dutto1]

The fighting around Radomysl took place between 26.11.43-16.12.43.On the 27.11.43 the LSSAH was in position to launch an attack using SS Panzergrenadier rgt 2 reinforced by 2/abt SS Panzer rgt 1 also attached was pioneer of the division.Also SS panzergrenadier rgt 1 reinforced by the Stug abt of the division and 2 Kompanies of Panzerjager abt 1 of the LSSAH was attached to beef up the attack force.The attack planned for the 27.11.43 was postponed for 2hrs due to bad weather.At 6am strong assault forces from SS Panzergrenadier rgt 1 and 2 attacked across the Belka river to open up crossings at Begrebovka and point 170.3 which was 3km north of Sabelotschye,the 1/abt/SS Panzergrenadier rgt 2 was outflanked by Soviet forces moving North from Negrebovka,and the crossing at Negrebovka was not taken.The 1/abt SS Panzergrenadier rgt 2 took a bridge at point 170 in a suprise attack at 8.10 hrs,with a bridgehead established the attack continued with an frontal assault on a hill south-west of Guta Sabelozkaya,upon the hill being taken the attack on Guta Sabelozkaya began.The fight for Guta Sabelozkaya lasted almost 6 hrs with units of the LSSAH involved in house to house fighting,Russian armour also caused problems.During the fighting for Guta Sabelozkaya SS-Untersturmfuhrer Heinz Nowotnik won the RK for his actions and bravery.
The road that ran between between Guta Sabelozkaya and Radomysyl was captured by 1/abt/ss-Panzergreanadier rgt 2.

This is pt1 i will do pt2 and 3 in next 5 days or so daredevil there is quite a bit involved.

[Dutto1]

On 28.11.43 the III/gepSS Panzergrenadier rgt2 under Haupsturmfuhrer Paul Guhl crossed a bridge built by pioneirs north of Sabelostchye and attacked Gardov,the attack was halted by the Russians who had fortified their positions well,the Battalion withdrew from the attack after their rear was threatned by Russian forces.

SS Panzer Rgt 1 which had just been taken over by Sturmbannfuhrer Jochen Peiper,with SS AA-1 recon bn attached crossed the bridge and made their way west.By 15.40hrs the attack had cut through the Russian lines and cut the road junction just south of Radomsyl At 16.45 hrs SS Panzer rgt-1 advanced from the junction and swung towards Gardov come early evening they pentrated into the outskirts of Gardov then halted the attack til the following morning.

On 29.11.43 at 0900hrs Peiper and his unit resumed the attack on Gardov one hr later he reported to HQ that the Gardov had been captured after stiff Soviet resistance.In the meantime elements of the LSSAH had been clearing forest area south of Sobolev and the III/gep SS Panzergrenadier rgt2 with the support of 1/SS Panzer rgt1 under
Sturmbannfuhrer Kuhlmann launched an attack to clear forest area west of Kol Toltstoy.By nightfall the LSSAH held a line of Negrebovka-Guta Sabelozkaya-Gardov-and the road as far as Kostcherovo-Radomsyl.

LSSAH losses for he fighting from 26.11.43-30.11.43 were 363 KIA 1289 wounded 33 missing a heavy butchers bill indeed


To be continued..........

[daredevil]

thanks a lot for all, brother.

[general g]

thanks a lot , if you can just a brief story of what happened and why was so important in the situation of the front .

The attack had the objective of at least reducing the Kiev bridghead.The commander of 48th pz corps,Hermann Balck disagreed with the plan and would have preferred to ignore Radomysl and go straight for Kiev.He considered that first taking Radomysl would give the russians time to make the bridghead too strong.His memoirs(Ordnung im Chaos)are an interesting source on this offensive(p.467-484).Also panzeroperations,the memoir of general Raus translated by Steve Newton.After Radomysl was taken the second phase stalled as the russians poured in reinforcements.The atack was then stopped.In december a new surprise flanking attack was launched in which the russian 60th army was overrun by 48th panzer corps and a deep penetration was made.

[daredevil]

thanks a lot general g. your help is very welcome

[Martin Block]

Hello Dutto1,

The 'butchers bill' was indeed heavy, but please note that the loss figures you give or quote are not those for 26. - 30.11.1943 alone, but those listed for the whole month, i.e. 1. - 30.11.1943 in the original monthly status report of the 1. SS-Pz.Div. to the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. for November 1943 (plus 133 sick). How many of the losses actually happened during 26. - 30.11.1943 is not detailed in the report, but I very much doubt all of them did!

Reported total losses of AFVs between 22.11. and 2.12.1943 amounted to
12 Pzkpfw. IV (2 of them sent back to Germany for factory repair)
5 Pzkpfw. V
4 StuG III
3 Marder III
1 Wespe
1 Sd.Kfz. 232
1 Sd.Kfz. 250/3
1 Sd.Kfz. 251/7
How many of them were lost during the last 5 days of November I can't tell.

Until 10.12.1943 another
9 Pzkpfw. IV (1 of them sent back to Germany for factory repair)
4 Pzkpfw. V
1 Pzkpfw. VI
2 Marder III
1 Grille
were lost.

Finally, until 20.12.1943 another
1 Pzkpfw. II (sent back to Germany for factory repair)
3 Pzkpfw. IV
2 Pzkpfw. V
1 Pzkpfw. VI
1 Pz.Bef.Wg. III (Sd.Kfz. 266)
2 StuG III
1 Marder III
1 Grille
1 Sd.Kfz. 250/1
2 Sd.Kfz. 250/3
5 Sd.Kfz. 251/1
3 Sd.Kfz. 251/7
had been written off

During the whole month of December 1943 the personnel of the division suffered 376 KIA, 1106 WIA, 62 MIA, 128 sick, and 765 other reasons. How many of these losses had been suffered until 16.12.1943 I can't tell.

Martin Block

[Dutto1]

Hello Dutto1,

The 'butchers bill' was indeed heavy, but please note that the loss figures you give or quote are not those for 26. - 30.11.1943 alone, but those listed for the whole month, i.e. 1. - 30.11.1943 in the original monthly status report of the 1. SS-Pz.Div. to the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. for November 1943 (plus 133 sick). How many of the losses actually happened during 26. - 30.11.1943 is not detailed in the report, but I very much doubt all of them did!

Reported total losses of AFVs between 22.11. and 2.12.1943 amounted to
12 Pzkpfw. IV (2 of them sent back to Germany for factory repair)
5 Pzkpfw. V
4 StuG III
3 Marder III
1 Wespe
1 Sd.Kfz. 232
1 Sd.Kfz. 250/3
1 Sd.Kfz. 251/7
How many of them were lost during the last 5 days of November I can't tell.

Until 10.12.1943 another
9 Pzkpfw. IV (1 of them sent back to Germany for factory repair)
4 Pzkpfw. V
1 Pzkpfw. VI
2 Marder III
1 Grille
were lost.

Finally, until 20.12.1943 another
1 Pzkpfw. II (sent back to Germany for factory repair)
3 Pzkpfw. IV
2 Pzkpfw. V
1 Pzkpfw. VI
1 Pz.Bef.Wg. III (Sd.Kfz. 266)
2 StuG III
1 Marder III
1 Grille
1 Sd.Kfz. 250/1
2 Sd.Kfz. 250/3
5 Sd.Kfz. 251/1
3 Sd.Kfz. 251/7
had been written off

During the whole month of December 1943 the personnel of the division suffered 376 KIA, 1106 WIA, 62 MIA, 128 sick, and 765 other reasons. How many of these losses had been suffered until 16.12.1943 I can't tell.

Martin Block

Hello Martin,



Thanks for the corrections and info.I got my figures from Lehmann s Leibstandarte vol 3 ,he quotes them in the Radomsyl chapter p.344 i thought at the time they seemed high for a few days fighting !

Regards

Ron

[general g]

A quote from Die 1.Pz Div.,R.Stoves p.438 to show how hard the fighting was around Radomysl.
"The 21.11 the 1.Pz.Div.advanced again,this time with all available forces,against Kotscherowo which was situated on the raiway to Kiev.The weather had worsened.The battlegroups of the division only advanced slowly,even with tank support, against heavy enemy resistance .The tanks had considerable difficulties in moving through the forest beside the railway.The commander of the 6./Pz 1 Lt Dr Graf was severely injured by a PAK hit at short range,more panzer IV fell out.One advanced only step by step even after using the Panther.The Panzer V could not really bring to bear their guns in the woody and partially marshy area.The severe woodfighting also caused serious losses to the Panzergrenadiere,although the Pz A.R. 73 supported the attack with all available batteries from positions near Gorodetzkoje.An important bridge west of Kotscherowo was blown up.Strong PAK and mortar fire caused heavy losses to the concentrically advancing brave batallions. In addition to that, the red airforce intervened more and more with numerous Il -2 fighterbombers in the groundfighting.Only after putting together all available batteries under Obstlt Söth,Kdr Pz.A.R.73 could the dominating hills to the east and norteast of the city be taken towards 19.00.Shortly afterwards Kotscherowo was also in the hands of the 1.Pz.Div(advanced commandpost from 19.00 Gorodetzkoje).
The objective of the attacks of the last days was to seal of the breakthrough of russian pz forces to the west in the line Fastoff-Radomysl-Korosten,and then to advance in the back of the 1.Ukr. Front and ultimately push the enemy from the western shore of the Dnjepr.The next days and weeks would show that the higher command,not taking into account the real balance of forces,had again imposed an objective that went too far.Particularly ,when it had to be achieved by the orthodox way of frontal atacks against the Dnjepr bridghead to the west of Kiev with only few mobile forces.The Army Group and the 4.Pz Army saw things more realistically.'

[general g]

A quote from 'Ordnung im Chaos,H .Balck pp471-473 on the second phase of the offensive in november 1943.

'The five lost days were used by the russian.At Brussilow he had assembled strong forces,1.Garde Kav.Korps,V. and VII. Gardepanzerkorps,which attacked our right flank on 17.11 and 18.11 and attacked eight times at Kotscherowo and four times at Brussilow without obtaining the slightest success.Their destruction was the precondition before the avance on Kiev.As 3 more divisions were made available, we advanced for a concentric attack.On the right wing was put the 19.Pz Div.,in the middle the Leibstandarte.In the north the 1.Pz Div. of which the left wing had to be covered offensively by the 7.Pz.Div.
The movements started on 20.11.The Army wanted a delay of one day for a better preparation.Ultimately we imposed our point of view concerning an immediate attack......
The fighting was heavy.On both wings the progress was good.Namely both not yet fully refitted panzer divisions 7 and 19,which had only the strength of a weak battlegroup but were well led by generals Manteuffel and Källner,had good success.....
In the middle the atack of the Leibstandarte did not penetrate against an overly strong enemy. For the first time an attack by the Leibstandarte failed.The mood is despondent.
As usual there were frictions.The Army wanted to stop the attack because it did not believe in success.The 19. and 1.Pz Div.did not exploit their success ,but had stood still.With much effort the attack came in flow again in the afternoon,and at nightfall stopped again at both attackwings.One shrunk from attacking into the night.The corps became real energetic but ultimately the 1. and 19.Pz Div advanced further in the pitch black night and closed the ring 23.11 shortly after midnight.
The 23.11 brought the cleaning up of the pocket of Brussilow.The russian had timely withdrawn staffs and specialists.He needed them for setting up new units.Also many men got away through our thin lines.But it was still a considerable booty which the 3 Korps had to leave behind:153 tanks,more than 70 guns,250 PAK,more than 3000 dead,in addition many prisoners.'