Armor in Nordwind

[Tom Houlihan]

Quick question reference Operation Nordwind. I'm reading Whiting's version of it, and it seems to be full of holes.

Does anyone happen to have some guesstimate (or accurate response!) on the numbers and types of tanks and SPGs available to 21 and 25 Panzer Divisions during that battle?
I'm flat out not accepting his claims on the number of Tigers available, and I'm having trouble with one passage about an infantry assault being led by an 88mm SPG!!!

[Juha Hujanen]

Hi Tom!

As it happens i'm just reading Pallud's excellent Battle of the Bulge.Then And Now and it says:

on 26.12 tank strengts of:

21.Panzer-26 tanks
17.SS-57 Stugs
25.Pz.Gren.-52 tanks and 25 SPW's

Other armoured units in Nordwind were:

s.Pz.Jg.Abt.653-9 Jagdtigers
Mörser-Batterie 428-Tiger-Mörsers
Panzer-Flamm-Kompanie 352 and 353-20 flame-thrower Jagdpanzer 38(t)


The infantry and volksgrenadier divisions had some Hetzer's and Stug's

Cheers/Juha

[Michael Kenny]

Although the Jagdtigers were assigned and started moving towards the front they never got there. No Jagdtigers in the 'Bulge'

[Tom Houlihan]

Okay, so far that fits with my understanding of the situation. I wasn't aware of many, if any, Tigers in Nordwind, but I haven't had the opportunity to go back and double check. Thanks!

[Richard Murphy]

Nordwind is not the same as the battle of the "Bulge" (Herbstnebel[/i.].) Some Jagdtigers (See Bonn When the Odds where Even p137-39) were available, but, given the restricted terrain (And the fact that that they used the same aiming system of an 88 alongside the manoueverabilty of a basic StuG, with a far higher profile.), they were of little use.

Hang them back, on high ground, with plenty of camoflage, they could have taken out command (Or any other tanks, for that matter.) at will, but these were not assault vehicles.

Regards from the Park

Rich

[Tom Houlihan]

Right! I have Bonn's book. As a matter of fact, Kit is on my speed dial. But he was out of town, and at the moment (holding the baby in my lap!), I figured I could get an answer here quicker than trying to find it in a book one-handed!!

I'm thinking that Whiting just took basic reports and interviews from men who only knew of one German tank, and one type of German cannon. As far as an 88mm SPG leading an infantry attack, it didn't seem logical from any angle!!

Well, I'm going to need to verify the information one or the other for my own research project, so I'll just put that on the task list.

Thanks for the help, fellas!

[Michael Kenny]

When I typed in my reply I knew that Jagdtigers did indeed see action in Nordwind which is why I added the rider "No Jagdtigers in the 'Bulge' "

The pic you mention from 'When The Odds Were Even' is in fact printed the wrong way round and is the very first Jagdtiger lost in combat (9/1/45)and was a victim of a bazooka and not an M36 as the caption states. .

[Juha Hujanen]

According to Pallud that Jagdtiger was destroyed near Rimling,17 km west of Bitche.

Cheers/Juha

[USA_Finn]

http://www.100thww2.org/support/776combat.html

claims this Tiger is from the 653rd...did such a unit even exist?

"Captain Jack Rothschild, 776th TD Battalion, examines the wreckage of the first Hunting Tiger ever destroyed on the Western Front, killed by the crew led by Lieutenant John C. Britz. Near Rimling, January 1945. (NA)"

My site has a little more on the power of the Jackson TD, with the 90MM cannon and its use at the Maginot..

http://efour4ever.com/44thdivision/nordwind.html

Matti Jolma

[Michael Kenny]

Schwere PanzerJager Abteilung 653 did indeed 'exist' and in the book of the same name by JJF there is a description of this Jagdtigers destruction. Andrew Devey in his book 'Jagdtiger, The Operational History' also describes the loss and both accounts say it was destroyed by a Bazooka and then blown up by demolition charges. The photos were taken in late January, 2-3 weeks after it was originaly knocked out.

[Bob_Mackenzie]

3 Jagdtiger attacked Rimling on the 9th January. They were supporting the 17 SS Pz Gr Div. The 17th also had Hetzer Flammpanzers attached at some point, though I'm not 100% certain they were involved in the 9th Jan attack

I'd like to find out more about the Rimling fighting. A decent map of the place woud be a start, as would a good OB of both side actually involved in the battle

Cheers

Bob

[Bob_Mackenzie]

To resurect a very old thread....

Ive found a map






but still dont have a detailed idea of which sub-units were involved on both sides

Cheers

Bob

[logibear64]

After his capture in January 1945 Standartenführer Ligner admitted the following: 17-SS had 22 x 75-mm Assault guns organized in three companies. Of these, five (5) were non-operational. During the attack on Rimling three (3) were destroyed near the village of Achem and another three (3) damaged by American mines but recovered. The remaining armor (8x8 and 6x4 wheeled Spähwagen of the Aufklärungs abteilung) according to Ligner was not committed in the attack on Rimling.

[Bob_Mackenzie]

Fantastic - most useful. Several sources say the 17th has 70 odd StuGsa Ive always though that if they had that much armour they would have defeated the Americans

Cheers

Bob

[JABIER]

I have read that 2 Mk V´s were knocked out by one gun of 1st Plat A Co (776th TD Bn) instead of a Mk VI and one probable as reported 9 January 1945. Also that the 2nd Plat B Co of the same unit, in position in vic Bettviller, fired a Mk V tank at a range of 3000 yards. After several direct hits the ey tank was destroyed.

In a report from the 100th ID is mentioned a tank inside Rimling: "Then we heard the noise of tank coming toward us, down the road I had walked from Schlietzen hill.[...] He stopped at 10 to 15 yards from the house, near the 57mm at gun, and rotated his turret so that the long artillery weapon pointed at the hole in the wall". Tanks with turret and long gun!

On 31 December the 21 Pz Div had to lend one Panther company to the 17.SS PGD. On 2 January the company returned to the division with only four tanks out of 17. Could have been of some of these Panthers still with the 17SS on 9 January? Or more simply, were in the Rimling area any German tank with turret?

Regards,