High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

Discussions on all (non-biographical) aspects of the Freikorps, Reichswehr, Austrian Bundesheer, Heer, Waffen-SS, Volkssturm and Fallschirmjäger and the other Luftwaffe ground forces. Hosted by Christoph Awender.
Post Reply
nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010, 07:39
Location: Philippines

Re:

#151

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 05 Sep 2010, 06:54

Vincent S. wrote:Hello,

Gerardus Mooyman destroyed 13 Russian tanks in the winter of 41/42.

Herefor he recieved the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross.

Gerardus Mooyman was a Dutchman of the Freiwilligen SS legion "Nederland".

Here's a drawing of him, drawn by me...

Best Regards.

Heer Research Site.
very nice drawing...

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010, 07:39
Location: Philippines

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#152

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 11 Sep 2010, 08:54

Wittmann's score at Villers-Bocage: June 1944
25 British tanks
14 armored half-tracks
14 Bren carriers


User avatar
carius
Member
Posts: 19633
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:15
Location: Bulgaria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#153

Post by carius » 11 Sep 2010, 11:26

From where You have this information?

Regards
George

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010, 07:39
Location: Philippines

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#154

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 11 Sep 2010, 11:31

In page 20 of a chapter in 'German Weapons of World War II' entitled: 'Tiger Ace: Michael Wittmann'

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6759
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 18:22
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#155

Post by Christoph Awender » 14 Sep 2010, 23:05

George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph

User avatar
carius
Member
Posts: 19633
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:15
Location: Bulgaria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#156

Post by carius » 15 Sep 2010, 05:46

Thank you Christoph!

Regards
George

nebelwerferXXX
Member
Posts: 1256
Joined: 31 Jul 2010, 07:39
Location: Philippines

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#157

Post by nebelwerferXXX » 24 Sep 2010, 14:32

Christoph Awender wrote:George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph
'...Sorry...Sir...'

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#158

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 26 Sep 2010, 00:13

George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph
But all numbers in this thread are such "old fiction numbers" (i.e. claims).

So either we compare what is comparable ("old fiction" with "old fiction") or nothing.

We shouldn't compare apples with oranges.
Allied documents show a completely different side.
But if you verify all numbers quoted in this thread with Allied / Soviet documents, you will see that most probably all numbers are overestimated - not just those of Michael Wittmann from Villers-Bocage.

Even if a number of claimed "kills" is in some case not even a bit overestimated, certainly not all of those claimed "kills" resulted in tanks being destroyed (i.e. impossible to be repaired or rebuilt) - we can only speak about "armor piercing (i.e. successful) hits" and "knocked out" AFVs, many (most) of which were later repaired.

Of course comparing all these claims with documents is impossible.

Cheers,
Peter

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8695
Joined: 11 Nov 2004, 13:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#159

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 26 Sep 2010, 06:15

And where is the news? :roll:

Jan-Hendrik

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6759
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 18:22
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#160

Post by Christoph Awender » 27 Sep 2010, 16:45

Jan-Hendrik wrote:And where is the news? :roll:

Jan-Hendrik
:-) wie sagt man so schön... "zwei ..... ein Gedanke"

@Peter,
Thanks for the comments. I did not read the entire thread and focused my comment on this one post. But believe me I did enough researches for official projects or authors of books to have experience in comparing allied (loss) reports and german claims to know the problems and possibilities. But thanks for your insight in the subject.

/Christoph

User avatar
carius
Member
Posts: 19633
Joined: 14 Apr 2007, 21:15
Location: Bulgaria

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#161

Post by carius » 18 Oct 2010, 21:07

KC holder StuG ace oberwachtmeister Richard Schramm (≈37/44 kills)

George
Attachments
schramm.jpg
from eBay.de
schramm.jpg (107.17 KiB) Viewed 12578 times

User avatar
general g
Banned
Posts: 615
Joined: 17 May 2010, 11:45

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#162

Post by general g » 19 Oct 2010, 14:00

Domen121 wrote:
George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph
But all numbers in this thread are such "old fiction numbers" (i.e. claims).

So either we compare what is comparable ("old fiction" with "old fiction") or nothing.

We shouldn't compare apples with oranges.
Allied documents show a completely different side.
But if you verify all numbers quoted in this thread with Allied / Soviet documents, you will see that most probably all numbers are overestimated - not just those of Michael Wittmann from Villers-Bocage.

Even if a number of claimed "kills" is in some case not even a bit overestimated, certainly not all of those claimed "kills" resulted in tanks being destroyed (i.e. impossible to be repaired or rebuilt) - we can only speak about "armor piercing (i.e. successful) hits" and "knocked out" AFVs, many (most) of which were later repaired.

Of course comparing all these claims with documents is impossible.

Cheers,
Peter
Very sensible comment about the 'kills' by tanks.And the nitpicking about Wittmanns 'kills' has a political motivation.
The truth is the man killed a lot of tanks(how many exactly were realy total loss being irrelevant) in his long career and that makes him one of the great tank commanders.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 8251
Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
Location: Teesside

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#163

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Oct 2010, 16:35

general g wrote:
And the nitpicking about Wittmanns 'kills' has a political motivation.
As the main 'nitpicker' I can assure you politics (with or without a capital 'P') never entered in to it. Anyone could have done the same calculations and found the numbers were hugely inflated.
general g wrote: The truth is the man killed a lot of tanks(how many exactly were realy total loss being irrelevant) in his long career and that makes him one of the great tank commanders.
You would think so but again upon looking at the numbers you find that every one of his 138 'kill total' dates from July 1943-june 1944(just over 11 months) and his period in Tigers . Not a single claim is carried over from his Stug. service.

In Agte's book on Wittmann you read that he left Russia for Normandy with 114 or 117 kills to his name. Over half this total seems to have been racked up in the period 7th January to 29th January. It is said his kill total was:
56 on 7/1/44 (page 213)
66 on 9/1/44 (page 181)
88 on 13/1/44 (page 213)
114-117 29/1/44 (page 185)
His total was 117 kills in Russia and all were claimed July 1943-January 1944 (6 months).
117 in 6 months.
Nothing much happens for months and in single actions he routinely adds 10+ to his tally.

We know for certain his Normandy total is at least twice reality.

Wittmann came from nowhere and was gone in just over a year. The hype is nearly all 1960's post-war invention and despite all claims to the contrary Allied tankers in France had never heard of Wittmann or even noticed his passing..

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6759
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 18:22
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#164

Post by Christoph Awender » 19 Oct 2010, 17:02

Very sensible comment about the 'kills' by tanks.And the nitpicking about Wittmanns 'kills' has a political motivation.
The truth is the man killed a lot of tanks(how many exactly were realy total loss being irrelevant) in his long career and that makes him one of the great tank commanders.
generalg,
I am really fed up by your posts calling everyone not following your theory bubble of history things! You are not Talking to 7 year old Tank model playing boys when you to Michael or me. I tell you this the first and last time.... Do not accuse me of being political!! I hope the Message reached you. No further discussions and comments! Stay on topic and bring in reliable sources instead of accusing us to be political!
You are a guest in this Forum so behave properly!

/Christoph

User avatar
Christoph Awender
Forum Staff
Posts: 6759
Joined: 10 Mar 2002, 18:22
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

#165

Post by Christoph Awender » 19 Oct 2010, 21:40

- Two posts by generalg removed -

generalg,
What part of my sentence - no personal accusations, personal comments and discussions - was not understood by you? I mean what I say.

/Christoph

Post Reply

Return to “Heer, Waffen-SS & Fallschirmjäger”