High Scorers with Panzers and Paks

[nebelwerferXXX]

Hello,

Gerardus Mooyman destroyed 13 Russian tanks in the winter of 41/42.

Herefor he recieved the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross.

Gerardus Mooyman was a Dutchman of the Freiwilligen SS legion "Nederland".

Here's a drawing of him, drawn by me...

Best Regards.

Heer Research Site.

very nice drawing...

[nebelwerferXXX]

Wittmann's score at Villers-Bocage: June 1944
25 British tanks
14 armored half-tracks
14 Bren carriers

[carius]

From where You have this information?

Regards
George

[nebelwerferXXX]

In page 20 of a chapter in 'German Weapons of World War II' entitled: 'Tiger Ace: Michael Wittmann'

[Christoph Awender]

George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph

[carius]

Thank you Christoph!

Regards
George

[nebelwerferXXX]

George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph

'...Sorry...Sir...'

[Peter K]

George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph

But all numbers in this thread are such "old fiction numbers" (i.e. claims).

So either we compare what is comparable ("old fiction" with "old fiction") or nothing.

We shouldn't compare apples with oranges.

Allied documents show a completely different side.

But if you verify all numbers quoted in this thread with Allied / Soviet documents, you will see that most probably all numbers are overestimated - not just those of Michael Wittmann from Villers-Bocage.

Even if a number of claimed "kills" is in some case not even a bit overestimated, certainly not all of those claimed "kills" resulted in tanks being destroyed (i.e. impossible to be repaired or rebuilt) - we can only speak about "armor piercing (i.e. successful) hits" and "knocked out" AFVs, many (most) of which were later repaired.

Of course comparing all these claims with documents is impossible.

Cheers,
Peter

[Jan-Hendrik]

And where is the news?

Jan-Hendrik

[Christoph Awender]

And where is the news?

Jan-Hendrik

wie sagt man so schön... "zwei ..... ein Gedanke"

@Peter,
Thanks for the comments. I did not read the entire thread and focused my comment on this one post. But believe me I did enough researches for official projects or authors of books to have experience in comparing allied (loss) reports and german claims to know the problems and possibilities. But thanks for your insight in the subject.

/Christoph

[carius]

KC holder StuG ace oberwachtmeister Richard Schramm (≈37/44 kills)

George

[general g]

George, please forget these numbers!! They are just the copy of the old fiction numbers about the action at Villers Bocage. Allied documents show a completely different side.

/Christoph

But all numbers in this thread are such "old fiction numbers" (i.e. claims).

So either we compare what is comparable ("old fiction" with "old fiction") or nothing.

We shouldn't compare apples with oranges.

Allied documents show a completely different side.

But if you verify all numbers quoted in this thread with Allied / Soviet documents, you will see that most probably all numbers are overestimated - not just those of Michael Wittmann from Villers-Bocage.

Even if a number of claimed "kills" is in some case not even a bit overestimated, certainly not all of those claimed "kills" resulted in tanks being destroyed (i.e. impossible to be repaired or rebuilt) - we can only speak about "armor piercing (i.e. successful) hits" and "knocked out" AFVs, many (most) of which were later repaired.

Of course comparing all these claims with documents is impossible.

Cheers,
Peter

Very sensible comment about the 'kills' by tanks.And the nitpicking about Wittmanns 'kills' has a political motivation.
The truth is the man killed a lot of tanks(how many exactly were realy total loss being irrelevant) in his long career and that makes him one of the great tank commanders.

[Michael Kenny]

And the nitpicking about Wittmanns 'kills' has a political motivation.

As the main 'nitpicker' I can assure you politics (with or without a capital 'P') never entered in to it. Anyone could have done the same calculations and found the numbers were hugely inflated.

The truth is the man killed a lot of tanks(how many exactly were realy total loss being irrelevant) in his long career and that makes him one of the great tank commanders.

You would think so but again upon looking at the numbers you find that every one of his 138 'kill total' dates from July 1943-june 1944(just over 11 months) and his period in Tigers . Not a single claim is carried over from his Stug. service.

In Agte's book on Wittmann you read that he left Russia for Normandy with 114 or 117 kills to his name. Over half this total seems to have been racked up in the period 7th January to 29th January. It is said his kill total was:
56 on 7/1/44 (page 213)
66 on 9/1/44 (page 181)
88 on 13/1/44 (page 213)
114-117 29/1/44 (page 185)
His total was 117 kills in Russia and all were claimed July 1943-January 1944 (6 months).
117 in 6 months.
Nothing much happens for months and in single actions he routinely adds 10+ to his tally.

We know for certain his Normandy total is at least twice reality.

Wittmann came from nowhere and was gone in just over a year. The hype is nearly all 1960's post-war invention and despite all claims to the contrary Allied tankers in France had never heard of Wittmann or even noticed his passing..

[Christoph Awender]

Very sensible comment about the 'kills' by tanks.And the nitpicking about Wittmanns 'kills' has a political motivation.
The truth is the man killed a lot of tanks(how many exactly were realy total loss being irrelevant) in his long career and that makes him one of the great tank commanders.

generalg,
I am really fed up by your posts calling everyone not following your theory bubble of history things! You are not Talking to 7 year old Tank model playing boys when you to Michael or me. I tell you this the first and last time.... Do not accuse me of being political!! I hope the Message reached you. No further discussions and comments! Stay on topic and bring in reliable sources instead of accusing us to be political!
You are a guest in this Forum so behave properly!

/Christoph

[Christoph Awender]

- Two posts by generalg removed -

generalg,
What part of my sentence - no personal accusations, personal comments and discussions - was not understood by you? I mean what I say.

/Christoph