German detailed losses 1939

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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#46

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Oct 2008, 21:28

The breakdown of these casualties - 484 dead and 918 wounded - had been already established in this thread.

It seems that all of them are from the battles of Lwów and around Lwów - all of them were suffered on 12th of September and later.

It is very, very strange - because this division fought several major battles before 12th of September (at least 6 - as can be seen in the map below) - here is a map of its battle-road:

Image

I really don't know a battle in history without a single casualty - maybe these were first - but I would rather say that authors you quoted are mistaken, and losses given above are only from the battle of Lwów (and nearbyhood), suffered since 12th of Septmeber - and not casualties from the whole campaign, with period before 12th of September included.

German daily reports from Christoph Avender's ww2 day by day confirm it - they say these are only casualties from the battle of Lwów.
because this division fought several major battles before 12th of September (at least 6 - as can be seen in the map below)
It seems - that at least 7 - because this one - fought on 10th of September - is not marked in the map above:
In the morning the enemy tries to destroy the german bridgehead but is rejected. Polish resistance on a height at Zagorz is broken with artillery support and the division starts to pursue the enemy. Polish resistance again at 2km behind Liska. The defended bridge there is taken after short fire fight. Olszanica is taken against enemy resistance. In the evening the enemy attacks the advance column surprisingly. One 2cm is destroyed and the enemy opens fire from all sides. During the night the village is secured and cleaned.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 29 Oct 2008, 21:56, edited 2 times in total.

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#47

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 29 Oct 2008, 21:47

No, that only confirms that you seem not to comprehend what secondary and primary sources are and how to work with them.

There was a quote from this document
1.Geb.Div. Ia Nr. 1855/39 geh, 20.10.1939, "Erfahrungsbericht über den Einsatz in Polen", NARA T315, R35, F0003.
which means that it cames from a internal experience report of 1.Geb.Div. dated 20th October 1939, to be found on the NARA Roll T315R35...

..which every serious researcher would call a primary source, more pime you won't get it! :idea:

Jan-Hendrik


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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#48

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Oct 2008, 22:04

OK - but - quotation from page 2 of this thread (posted by Richard Hargreaves) says:
There are no fatalities listed before September 12.

Annoyingly the history of 2 Geb Division does not list its casualties for the campaign :(
And as you can see this division was involved in some major combats before 12th of September - as I said - I do not know any single major combat without a single casualty suffered - especcialy such combat which simply had to be "painfull":

7th of September:

"In the morning the enemy tries to destroy the german bridgehead but is rejected. Polish resistance on a height at Zagorz is broken with artillery support and the division starts to pursue the enemy. Polish resistance again at 2km behind Liska. The defended bridge there is taken after short fire fight. Olszanica is taken against enemy resistance. In the evening the enemy attacks the advance column surprisingly. One 2cm is destroyed and the enemy opens fire from all sides. During the night the village is secured and cleaned."


As you can see 2cm gun (probably 2 cm Fliegerabwehrkanone 30) was destroyed. No fatalities ? - impossible.
There was a quote from this document
Which quote was from this document ? Nobody has written about it untill now. I first hear about this document - what numbers exactly does it give ?

-----------

Edit:

OK - sorry, I missed it. It was quoted on the previous page. But what exactly does it refers to (is there any more detailed breakdown of these numbers) ? And why some other German sources give different numbers ?
would call a primary source
If he knows it - I haven't known it untill now.

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#49

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 29 Oct 2008, 22:33

OK - but - quotation from page 2 of this thread (posted by Richard Hargreaves) says:
If you had read properly ...Richard only wrote about Geb.Jg.Rgt. 99 on page 2, not about the whole division :roll:
And as you can see this division was involved in some major combats before 12th of September - as I said - I do not know any single major combat without a single casualty suffered - especcialy such combat which simply had to be "painfull":
As I can see there is no real intention by your self to discuss anything...you simply repeat your statements regardless if they were proven to have been false the 5th time :idea:
Which quote was from this document ? Nobody has written about it untill now. I first hear about this document - what numbers exactly does it give
Again we get a proof that you simply don't want to read the fact you get presented...
The total losses for 1.Geb.Div during the whole campaign were:

405 KIA
918 WIA
79 MIA

Source:
1.Geb.Div. Ia Nr. 1855/39 geh, 20.10.1939, "Erfahrungsbericht über den Einsatz in Polen", NARA T315, R35, F0003.

Best wishes,
Chili
If he knows it - I haven't known it untill now.
...as everybody would have already recocknized :roll:

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#50

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Oct 2008, 22:35

Again we get a proof that you simply don't want to read the fact you get presented...
Please stop trying to insult me and read what I wrote - I missed this document at first... Then I corrected my post.
not about the wohle division :roll:
So - is there similar daily breakdown (which includes pre-12th of September period) for other units of the division (or - for the whole division) - and if it is - where is it then ?

If such a breakdown does not exist then I'm basing only on this what exists - and it says (wrongly of course) that there were no casualties before 12th of September - so then I make assumption that discussed data is only from the battle of Lwów (or - saying the same in a different way - from the period of 12th of September and forward).

Maybe data from the period before the battle of Lwów was destroyed and does not exist - if it was so, it would only confirm what I've already said.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 29 Oct 2008, 22:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#51

Post by Artur Szulc » 29 Oct 2008, 22:42

And why some other German sources give different numbers ?
It can depend on many things.

- The reports were written in a hurry.
- The reports were written to slow.
- The reports were based on different inputs.
- That is why internal post-action reports like the one I refered to are accurate, or at least more accurate.
OK - sorry, I missed it. It was quoted on the previous page. But what exactly does it refers to (is there any more detailed breakdown of these numbers)
No problem, everybody can miss things.

I will return to this to morrow, ok?

Cheers,

Chili

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#52

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 29 Oct 2008, 22:43

are more accurate, or at least more accurate.
???
I will return to this to morrow, ok?
Ok.
- That is why internal post-action reports like the one I refered to are accurate, or at least more accurate.
But you don't know (probably) if the reports on which those other German sources - which are giving different figures - base, had been made before this one or in a later period than this one.
- That is why internal post-action reports like the one
The later after event the report is written, the biggest mess there is - especcialy if previous reports were giving different figures, and it is not known which one was the most accurate one.

By the way - what was the lowest level of writing reports in Wehrmacht ? - regiment, battalion, company ?

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#53

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 29 Oct 2008, 22:54

So - is there similar daily breakdown (which includes pre-12th of September period) for other units of the division (or - for the whole division) - and if it is - where is it then ?
There are two nice sources for people who are interested in doing real research on subject German Army in 1939 to 1945:

One is Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv in Freiburg
Second is NARA in Washington D.C.

If you are really interested: keep your nose in the documents and dig! :D :D

That's the way others do it, to.

As for myself Poland 1939 is only a spot of secondary interest I rather spend my time on my first point of interest, the Eastern Front in 1944/45...for this period I have more enough primary sources that still wait to get worked through..

Jan-Hendrik
By the way:
Please stop trying to insult me and read what I wrote
If I really wanted to do so the AHF community would have already noticed it :P
Last edited by Jan-Hendrik on 30 Oct 2008, 07:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#54

Post by Artur Szulc » 29 Oct 2008, 23:19

Hi again!

What the hell, I have nothing better to do :lol:
The later after event the report is written, the biggest mess there is - especcialy if previous reports were giving different figures, and it is not known which one was the most accurate one.
That is true, but the report I am refering to was not written several months after the events, only four weeks.

And was just trying to give some resons to why different reports can present different numbers. I have in my possession some documents concerning the Polish Parachute Brigade and in all of them one can find different casualty numbers. But, the after action-report written by Sosabowski is probaly the most accurate. Well, that is a different story,
But what exactly does it refers to (is there any more detailed breakdown of these numbers)
No, sorry, there is no more detailed breakdown (perhaps in other documents) of the numbers more then:

23 Offz KIA, 69 Uffz KIA, 313 Mannschaften KIA
42 Offz WIA, 150 Uffz WIA, 726 Mannschaften WIA
8 Uffz MIA, 71 Mannschaften MIA

And 608 were sent to hospitals beacuse of illness.

According to the swedish historian Niklas Zetterling, who has written a well-documented book on the Polish campaign, read about it here: http://www.norstedtsforlagsgrupp.se/tem ... x?id=46304
the 1.Geb.Div. hardly saw any action during the firsk week of the campaign, and that is why most of the divisions casualties must have come during the advance towards Lwow and in action against the city.

I do not know if I have been helpful here but I agree with Jan-Hendrik, the best sources for these kind of numbers are in the archives.

Cheers,

Chili

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#55

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 30 Oct 2008, 07:44

Maybe data from the period before the battle of Lwów was destroyed and does not exist - if it was so, it would only confirm what I've already said.
Not really. Did you ever thought about the fact that much data was lost in the final weeks of the war...that f.e. the Heeresarchiv in Potsdam was lost on 14. April 1945 due to an RAF attack on the city?

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#56

Post by Rian » 31 Oct 2008, 19:38

Some about german irregural formations (Freikorps and Selbschutz).

During fights on Silesia Freikorps receive heavy casualties. From polish forum odkrywca - in Michalkowice coal mine part of Freikorps Ebbinghaus - Kampfgruppe Pisarski - lost about 50 KIA (including commander). In Chorzów - probably about 60 KIA, in Katowice during fights between polish and german irregural formations - 174 Germans was killed.
Other fight was 1 sept. on "Orzeł Biały" coal mine in Piekary Śląskie. 5 Germans was killed. Next day on same city was killed 3 german saboteurs.
That's only few places where Freikorps fought.

Selbschutz was active mostly on territory of Pomerania (17667 members), Wielkopolska, Silesia, Lodz. German irregurals and saboteurs fought in Bydgoszcz 3-4 september.

First fights between polish army and german irregurals started few days before 1st september.

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#57

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 31 Oct 2008, 21:43

Thanks Rian for this excellent data. Very considerable casualties - and that is only a small part of overall losses of such formations from the whole campaign.

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#58

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 02 Nov 2008, 14:41

But this of course does not increase Jentz's reliability, as he gives a certain number of tanks lost as Totalshaden (write-offs) in Poland (236), but all of them were written-off in September. There is another, certain group of tanks, which were written-off after September and before any other campaign, and there is no any explanation for writing them off. These tanks should be also counted as write-offs due to casualties suffered in Poland.
If it comes to Totalausfalle (write-offs, irrecovable losses), Jentz lists the following amount of write-offs between October 1939 and April 1940:
I don’t know if the Panzer IV tank which can be seen below was finally repaired or was it written-off and included to Totalausfalle (it doesn't look as it was severely damaged so I don't think so), but:

Photos from dws forum:

http://dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8 ... &start=575

Shortly after it was hit - September 1939:

Image

Transport from the battlefield:

Image

After transport:

Image

Autumn:

Image

Winter (snow can be seen):

Image

As can be seen - it was not repaired at least before the winter of 1939/1940. It also was not transported to any factory in the Reich and probably also to any workshop (what is the place it was transported to from the battlefield ?).

In the Polish odkrywca forum there are also photos of Panzer IV which was eliminated in the battle of Ćwiklice on 2nd of September 1939, and was still staying in the place where it had been hit in October of 1939.

Here are these photos:

This Panzer IV (from 5. Panzer-Division) was eliminated in this place on 2nd of September 1939:

Image

"Abgeschossener Panzer IV bei Pleß" (to be more concrete - bei Ćwiklice):

Image

And here is the same Panzer IV staying in the same place in October (it wasn't even transported from the battlefield, as that Panzer IV from the previous photos was):

Image

And - also in October - but "Wenige Tage spater":

Image

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#59

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Nov 2008, 01:28

Tank eliminated in Warsaw in September of 1939 - Warsaw, winter:

Image

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Re: German detailed losses 1939

#60

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 15 Nov 2008, 12:01

Horst Rohde "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Bd.2, Die Errichtung der Hegemonie auf dem europäischen Kontinent" (page 309). Rohde give detailed casualities of 1 Geb. Div. included 405 KIA, 918 WIA, 79 MIA, 608 sick, 647 horses (mules), 121 cars, 69 motorcycles, 72 side-car motorcycles, 678 rifles, 39 machine guns, 7 mortars, 1 light gun...
This is only another proof that statistics listed above only refer to casualties suffered by this division in the battle of Lwów (so on and after 12th of September) - not during the whole campaign in Poland:

Because on 10th of September:
In the morning the enemy tries to destroy the german bridgehead but is rejected. Polish resistance on a height at Zagorz is broken with artillery support and the division starts to pursue the enemy. Polish resistance again at 2km behind Liska. The defended bridge there is taken after short fire fight. Olszanica is taken against enemy resistance. In the evening the enemy attacks the advance column surprisingly. One 2cm is destroyed and the enemy opens fire from all sides. During the night the village is secured and cleaned.
Destroyed AA gun 20mm - there is no such kind of armament listed in the data given above.

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