Krojanty 01 sep 1939.

[tigre]

Thank you very much, Toku. Cheers. Tigre.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Do German sources confirm that Polish cavalry charging near Krojanty encountered Panzers?

If yes - what German sources confirm it?

[Ypenburg]

Zwei polnische Schwadronen Kavallerie sind durch die Lücke zwischen II. und III. Btl. durchgestossen und reiten eine attacke wie in früheren Zeiten. Alle verfügbaren waffen, selbst Granatwerfer, werden auf die Reiter angesetzt. Unter schweren Verlusten, darunter 1 Major und 2 Rittämeister müssen die Schwadronen inhre Attacke abbrechen und den Rückzug antreten. Dieser überraschende und nicht für möglich gehaltene Angriff fordert auch beim Btl. seinen Tribut.
Es werden verwundet: Lt. Grünewald, Adjutant b. Btl., Lt. d.Res. Page und einige Schützen der 7. Kp. die über den Verbandplatz ins Lazarett geschickt werden müssen.

Tagebuch-Aufzeichnung Max Manthey 6./IR76 (mot)

from Tagebuchnotizen und Erinnerungen 1938-1945 beim Regiment 76 - Anlagen und Teil II

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Thanks very much Ypenburg! So there is completely nothing mentioned about armoured vehicles - it seems that the attack was already repulsed by infantry! I wonder who created the myth of Polish cavalry charging Panzers then?

Info that the charge against infantry was successful (and then it failed against Panzers) also seems to be a myth.

Anyway - this charge, despite being a failure, had a major psychological impact (e.g. Guderian writes about it).

Es werden verwundet: Lt. Grünewald, Adjutant b. Btl., Lt. d.Res. Page und einige Schützen der 7. Kp.

Btw - do you happen to know if these WIA were wounded by enemy fire / in close combat (sabers) or by friendly fire?

[Ypenburg]

The quote should start with:

Inzwischen haben die vom Btl. angesetzten Spähtrupps gemeldet, daß die Waldteile vor Krojanten feindfrei seien. So geht der Vormarsch weiter. Die vorderen Teile des Btl's haben fast schon die vor ons liegenden Waldteile erreicht, als ein wildes feuer von der Feindseite einsetzt.
Zwei polnischen...etc.

I would say they were wounded by your countrymen.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Thanks Ypenburg, outstanding info!

Moreover - as far as I know the only Panzers 20. ID had got (so these from A.A.20) were involved in reconaissance and combats against Polish 35. Inf.Rgt. near the locality Sitno at the moment when the charge of Krojanty was in progress.

And what other Panzers could have optionally participated in the combat near Krojanty if not those from A.A.20?

Hard to find any.

[Ypenburg]

Maybe we do find the answer here: Same source, now a member of 14./IR76, mentioning 1.9.1939:

Der erste Ort Mosnitz war genommen. An der straße lagen die ersten toten polnischen Soldaten, Ulanen. Wir waren am Kampfgeschehen nicht beteiligt, erfuhren aber immer sehr bald, was vorne los war. Auch, daß polnische Lanzenreiter einen Angriff auf Panzerspähwagen der Aufklärungsabteilung 20 geritten waren. Ob es stimmt, weiß ich nicht, aber angeblich sollen Gefangene ausgesagt haben, man hätte ihnen erzählt, es würde sich um Attrappen handeln. Veilleicht hat mal ein Pole unsere beiden bei der 14. Kompanie vorhandenen Attrappen gesehen, die auf PKW einen entsprechenden Holzaufbau hatten und zu Übungszwecken benutzt wurden.......

So this happened the same day (1.9.1939 as mentioned above) only earlier as he also mentions:

Abends sahen wir von unsere Wagenburg aus noch einen polnischen Angriff, eine Reiterattacke auf, wenn ich mich recht erinnere, daß II. Bataillon. Einige Maschinengewehre leisteten ganze Arbeit. Der Angriff wurde zerschlagen.

So we have a Ulanen-attack hitting AA20 during daytime and a Cavalry attack on II. and III. Btl. when evening falls.

Anyway - this charge, despite being a failure, had a major psychological impact (e.g. Guderian writes about it).

If you want to put it in a positive light yes. The fact that Guderian writes about it could also mean that he wondered, like the men of IR76 did, how anyone could be so stupid and have his men slaughtered like this since WWI already had proven the cavalry-charges as worthless and a waist of lives.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

He wrote:

Ob es stimmt, weiß ich nicht

So he underlined that he was not sure if this was true or just a gossip. And it was rather just a gossip. Moszczenica (German Mosnitz) was part of the first defensive line of Polish 18th Uhlan Regiment, but Polish sources don't confirm any charge taking place there. Instead, they confirm a conventional defence and then a conventional counterattack.

Map of the area:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... m_1939.png

An der straße lagen die ersten toten polnischen Soldaten, Ulanen

Indeed, 18th Uhlan Regiment suffered its first casualties there, and they were rather heavy (10% of entire dismounted squadron, probably - so 7 - 6 dead, wounded & missing), but they were not suffered as the result of a cavalry charge.

Here is the text description from the regimental history of 18th Uhlan Regiment (combats in the morning):

[...]

On 1st of September at 4:45 AM Germans beginned war operations. Around 5:00 AM positions of 18th Regiment were attacked by units of 76th Infantry Regiment from 20. Motorizd Infantry Division of gen. lt. Wiktorian operating on the left north wing of XIX. Armoured Corps of gen. Heinz Guderian. Fog was impeding observation of the terrain but sticking out in front of the positions of 2nd squadron post of plat. Jan Sas didn't let the enemy to surprise it and the first exchange of fire took place. After that it was ordered to retreat by the squadron commander rtm. Jan Lados. Along the whole line German infantry assault supported by armoured vehicles [probably A.A.20] and 2 battalions of field artillery took place. Uhlans thrown grenades at the attacking infantry and carried out a bayonet counterattack. Germans avoided combat and temporarily retreated. In this first combat according to maj. Malecki casualties amounted to ca. 10% of forces used in combat, but on the enemy side it were to be even bigger. Yet German attack was still in progress. Despite the firepower superiority which they achieved, they didn't manage to break through the first defensive line. Not until 8:00 AM the defense of Border Guard along the line Zamarte - Kamien collapsed, which allowed the enemy to outflank the three fighting squadrons from the south. In connection with this they started to withdraw towards the region Pawlowo - Raclawki Hill. While carrying out this manoeuvre 2nd squadron found itself in a specially hard situation because it couldn't detach from the enemy. Only the successful artillery barrage of 2nd battery of 11. dak allowed the 2nd squadron to withdraw towards Angowice and then further. After seizing the first defensive line Germans ecountered heavy fire from small arms and machine guns from the 2nd defensive boundary, which caused temporary pause of their attack. Around 9:00 AM fog fell and even greater intensification of enemy offensive actions started. German artillery beginned strong fire at the second defensive line in Lichowce, in the meantime Polish soldiers in Lichowce managed to shot down a German reconaissance plane circling around the village. Despite intense attacks and considerable technical superiority Germans managed to shift only ca. 3 kms from the border suffering considerable casualties. Around 10:00 AM German armoured cars which were to support infantry attacks appeared in front of the 2nd defensive line. They got into fire of the AT platoon of lt. Roman Ciesielski, 4 of them were disabled and the rest retreated. Unfortunately during this combat lt. Roman Ciesielski was KIA, missile hit his neck. Enemy attack was repulsed, but German infantry started to circumvent the defensive line in the south and col. Mastalerz ordered to withdraw to the region Pawlowko (1st) - Pawlowo (2nd) - Raclawki (4th squadron). Whereas 3rd squadron entrenched along the line Nowa Cerkiew - Sternowo. Also 2. / 11. dak was moved to Sternowo.

Germans now trying to seize the tactical direction Chojnice - Czersk attacked again around 12:00 [...]

If it comes to cavalry charges:

since WWI already had proven the cavalry-charges as worthless and a waist of lives.

Not always, as both WW1, Polish-Soviet war and later even WW2 proved. Under some conditions cavalry charges were still very dangerous. Soviet forces during WW2 even used mounted cavalry supported by armoured vehicles attacks.

Cavalry charges in WW1 were worthless only on the Western Front, where a war in trenches was in progress (by the way - conventional infantry attacks were almost exactly as worthless there as cavalry charges, many battles proved it). While on the Eastern and South-Eastern fronts, where war operations were mobile, charges were often successful.

Just one example (and probably one of the most spectacular ones) - charge near Beersheba on 31.10.1917:



Another example from WW1 is Lawrence of Arabia who carried out some spectacular actions of mounted cavalry.

Btw - the last cavalry charge in WW2 was conducted by Waffen SS (4. Kuban Cossacs Regiment) - it took place during the night from 7th to 8th of May 1945, but the charge was not successful. If it comes to successful cavalry charges during WW2 - just to mention the charge conducted by Soviet cavalry near Wlodawa on 22.07.1944, the charge of Polish cavalry at Bobrujsk (German Schönfeld) on 01.03.1945 or the charge of Italian Savoia Cavalleria which took place at Isbuschenskji on 18.08.1942, as well as vast majority of all charges by Polish cavalry in September 1939.

The fact that Guderian writes about it

Guderian writes about chaos and panic caused by information about Polish cavalry charging somewhere. This information was certainly exaggerated every time it was repeated. He also writes that even his HQ were entrenching and preparing AT guns to repulse expected cavalry. They must have thought that Polish cavalry was outflanking them.

As the main reason why Polish cavalry was ordered to charge near Krojanty was to cause chaos in German units in order to give time for Polish infantry to withdraw from the arising pocket, the main target was achieved. All Polish sources say that for a dozen or so hours after the charge enemy pressure on Polish units considerably decreased.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Red Army soldier from 7th Cavalry Division (under command of F. S. Komkov) about the battle of Wilno:

"Propaganda of Rydz-Smigly was announcing in the Polish army, that Soviet T-26 tanks are made of plywood. That's why during the battle of Wilno Polish uhlans attacked a T-26 tank with sabers, but after a moment only handles of blades left in their hands - it turned out that the tank is armoured" - soldier I. S. Grib from 7th Cavalry Division.

Problem is, that not a single unit of Polish cavalry took part in the defence of Wilno in 1939. There was one battalion formed in the OZ (Spare Unit) of Wilenska Cav. Brig., but this was an infantry battalion (it didn't have horses). Moreover, this battalion probably retreated to Lithuania before the battle beginned (like most of Polish units).

Moreover, I wonder when did I. S. Grib write his account. It is quoted by Vladimir Beshanov in his book "Krasnyj Blickrig" on page 76 (Beshanov adds his comment: "Of course, this story looks like a soldier's fairy tale. The main role in the defence of Wilno was not played by uhlans"), but he doesn't quote his exact source. In some other cases when he quotes Soviet accounts, he writes that some of them were written even as late as after the death of Stalin.

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

as a result of that action fallen the 18 Cavalry Regiment's CO, Col Mastalerz, Cpt Swiesciak and 2º lt Milicki and almost 250 Polish riders.

By the way, Tigre, where have You taken 250 polish casualties? Author of the book "Wrzesień 1939" - Andrzej Krzysztof Kunert, who is a very respected Polish historian is giving 25 as a number of polish casualties. Map is taken from this book.

Probably the truth lies somewhere between 25 and 250, but in my opinion much closer to Polish then German estimation. Polish side have seen this charge as successful.

Z pośród ok. 250 ułanów biorących udział w walce poległo 25 i kilku oficerów w tym dowódca pułku, 50 ułanów zostało rannych.

Most sources say that Polish losses were 25 killed - not 250 (you probably mistakenly added one "extra" zero).

250 was more or less the total number of uhlans who participated in the charge (two mounted squadrons).

However - even 25 killed on the Polish side during the charge is an exaggeration. On 1 September 18th Uhlan Rgt. lost around 32 KIA in total, but only some of them (at least 11) were KIA near Krojanty and the remaining ones were KIA in long and heavy combats near Lichnowy, Angowice, Pawłowo, Dąbrówka Król, Moszczenica, Rakowiec & others.

Here is the list of soldiers from 18th Uhlan Regiment killed on 01.09.1939:

Rank / Name / Surname / Date of death / Place of death:

Officers:

płk Kazimierz Mastalerz, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
rtm. Eugeniusz Świeściak, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
ppor. rez. Tadeusz Mlicki, 1 IX 39, Krojanty

NCOs:

pchor. Paweł Kątek, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
pchor. Piotr Leszczyłowski, 1 IX 39, Krojanty

Men:

kpr. Władysław Przystałowski, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
uł. Jan Zebzda, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
uł. Teodor Klapiszewski, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
uł. Jan Pisarski, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
uł. Materka, 1 IX 39, Krojanty
uł. Dembiński, 1 IX 39, Krojanty

Question is if all of them were KIA during the charge (maybe there were also some other combats near Krojanty).

18th Uhlan Regiment also suffered casualties in other combats fought on 01.09.1939:

Officers:

ppor. Feliks Morkowski, 1 IX 39, Angowice
ppor. rez. Jerzy Dąbski, 1 IX 39, Angowice
ppor. Roman Ciesielski, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
ppor. rez. Włodzimierz Juszczakiewicz, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy

NCOs:

plut. pchor. rez. Stefan Szymański, 1 IX 39, Dąbrówka Król

Men:

kpr. Mikołaj Zdanowicz, 1 IX 39, Pawłowo
kpr. Paweł Popko, 1 IX 39, Pawłowo
kpr. Jan Kotowski, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
kpr. Jan Turulski, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
st. uł. Jerzy Hryniewicz, 1 IX 39, Moszczenica
st. uł. Franciszek Kubiak, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
uł. Aleksander Zaranko, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
uł. Włodzimierz Piętka, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
uł. Piotr Krzysztofik, 1 IX 39, Rakowiec

Some are listed as KIA on 01.09.1939 but without death places (hard to say if any of them died near Krojanty):

uł. Derwiński, 1 IX 39
uł. Puciak, 1 IX 39
uł. Hadrian, 1 IX 39
uł. Cyryl Szemrej, 1 IX 39
uł. Jan Sodomir, 1 IX 39

Some are listed without death date but with death place - for 99% they were killed on 01.09.1939:

st. uł. Józef Kraszewski, IX 39, Angowice
uł. Albin Strzelecki, Angowice

Total losses of the regiment during the campaign amounted to 65 killed (as you can see 01.09.1939 was the bloodiest day for the regiment - almost 50% of all losses). Further 13 officers of the regiment were murdered in Katyn in 1940.

Sources:

"List of fallen & missing soldiers of 18th Uhlan Regiment" (below the list is bibliography / primary sources):

http://www.kawaleria.marcin-lewandowski ... 8pul_5.php

And also:

http://www.18u.pl/page/index.php?go=historia

-----------------------------------

So what is the origin of this number (25 killed near Krojanty)?

That's quite easy - 25 is the number of soldiers of the regiment who are buried in the cemetery in Chojnice. All of them were KIA on 01.09.1939. But drawing a conclusion that all of them were KIA during the charge is false.

However - even 25 killed on the Polish side during the charge is an exaggeration. On 1 September 18th Uhlan Rgt. lost around 32 KIA in total, but only some of them (at least 11) were KIA near Krojanty and the remaining ones were KIA during long and heavy combats near Lichnowy, Angowice, Pawłowo, Dąbrówka Król, Moszczenica and Rakowiec.

An der straße lagen die ersten toten polnischen Soldaten, Ulanen

In Moszczenica 18 PUŁ suffered its first casualties and they were rather heavy - sources say that circa 10% of entire dismounted squadron - so 6 - 7 dead, wounded & missing. In the list above 1 soldier is listed as KIA there.

The description of combats near Moszczenica in the morning on 1 IX was already posted by me above.

-----------------------------

Edit:

By the way - soldiers killed in Lichnowy from the list above:

ppor. Roman Ciesielski, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
ppor. rez. Włodzimierz Juszczakiewicz, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy

kpr. Jan Kotowski, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
kpr. Jan Turulski, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
st. uł. Franciszek Kubiak, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
uł. Aleksander Zaranko, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy
uł. Włodzimierz Piętka, 1 IX 39, Lichnowy

And fragment refering to combats along the second defensive line in Lichowce from the text description above:

Around 9:00 AM fog fell and even greater intensification of enemy offensive actions started. German artillery beginned strong fire at the second defensive line in Lichowce, in the meantime Polish soldiers in Lichowce managed to shot down a German reconaissance plane circling around the village. Despite intense attacks and considerable technical superiority Germans managed to shift only ca. 3 kms from the border suffering considerable casualties. Around 10:00 AM German armoured cars which were to support infantry attacks appeared in front of the 2nd defensive line. They got into fire of the AT platoon of lt. Roman Ciesielski, 4 of them were disabled and the rest retreated. Unfortunately during this combat lt. Roman Ciesielski was KIA, missile hit his neck. Enemy attack was repulsed, but German infantry started to circumvent the defensive line in the south and col. Mastalerz ordered to withdraw to the region Pawlowko (1st) - Pawlowo (2nd) - Raclawki (4th squadron). Whereas 3rd squadron entrenched along the line Nowa Cerkiew - Sternowo. Also 2. / 11. dak was moved to Sternowo.

Certainly Lichnowy / Lichowce is one & the same village (there must be a misspelling either in the list or in the text).

[tigre]

Thanks Domen . Cheers. Raúl M .

[Piotr Kapuscinski]

Long thread in Polish about the charge (especially posts by B.Grabowski who is researching this event are interesting):

http://odkrywca.pl/szarza-pod-krojantam ... tml#664382

[tigre]

Hello to all ; for anyone interested in........

Krojanty the end of the myth.

The opponents.

By the German (attacking) side we found the IR 76 (Oberst Gollnick) part of the 20 ID (Mot) under command of Generalleutnant Wiktorin within the XIX AK (Mot) of General Guderian as part of the 4 AOK (General d.Artillerie v. Kluge) in the Army Group North (Generaloberst v. Bock).

By the Polish side (defenders) we have the 18 pułk ułanów (plk Kazimierz Mastalerz) part of the BK " Pomerania" (płk Adam Bogoria-Zakrzewski) which was part of the GO “Czersk” (General Stanisław Grzmot-Skotnicki) part of the Army “Pomerania” (General Bortnowski). One of the several tasks given to this Army was to avoid the link bewtween German forces coming from Pomerania and East Prussia.

Deployment.

To cope with the mentioned task was the GO “Czersk” was in the central region of the Corridor in the neighborhood of Brusy - Lubnia; nevertheless General Grzmot-Skotnicki had organized the Grouping “Chojnice” (Plk Majewski) composed by the 1. Hunters infantry battalion, Battalion ON “Czersk”, the 18 Pul, Battalion ON “Tuchola” (on the Brda), Company of Ing. KOP " Hoszcza" I./ 9 pal and 2. /11 Dak

Battalion ON “Czersk” was deployed due north in the front Charzykowy - Chojnice; in the center on the city itself the 1. Hunters infantry battalion (pplk Gustav Zacny) to the south in the region of Mosnitz - Angowice the 18 Pul. In the zone of Zamarte was a cyclists company of around 200 men (Kpt. Krafft).

Plk Kazimierz Mastalerz organized his force in two echelons, the first of them in charge of Mjr Stanislaw Malecki (three squadrons less a platoon) deployed on the line Angowice - Moszczenica - Annowo and the second echelon in charge of Rtm Zygmunt Ertman (an antitank squadron, 6 machine guns, 2 guns and the cyclist Pl.) around Lychnowo; there it was also the CP of the regiment and the observatory of the 2. / 11 dak (Kpt Janusz Pasturczak).

Sources: http://www.grudziadz.pl/_main_kaw_en.php?link=4
auctionfactory.de
http://www.mapywig.org/m/WIG100_300DPI/ ... 300dpi.jpg
Incidents of the Campaign in Poland 1939. The Field Artillery Journal. Jun 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gollnick
D. Asmus, Die 20. Inf. Div. (mot) (spaeter 20. Pz. Gren. Div.) Chronik und Geschichte
http://arcanahistorii.prv.pl/slowo/pdf2/3.pdf
http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=124240

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; more follows........

Krojanty the end of the myth.

The 20 ID Mot.

The 20 (Mot) had the mission to protect the North flank of XIX AK (Mot) and to seize the city of Konitz/Chojnice by means of an outflanking attack and then to clear the locality of enemy troops. The Pz Zug Nº 3 attached to the Division had in the beginning of the attack to reach the station of Konitz and to avoid its destruction.

On August 31 of 1939 at 20:30 hours the IR 76 (Oberst Gollnick) advanced up to behind Schlochau and then continued on foot until its departure line (farm of Arthur Gamel). The fog and the dark hid the displacements to the enemy. The HQ of the AR 56 (Oberst Helmut Weidling) was located in Lichtenhagen. The Commando of the AR 56 controlled I./AR 56 and besides the three groups of AR 20.



Sources: http://www.grudziadz.pl/_main_kaw_en.php?link=4
auctionfactory.de
http://www.mapywig.org/m/WIG100_300DPI/ ... 300dpi.jpg
Incidents of the Campaign in Poland 1939. The Field Artillery Journal. Jun 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gollnick
D. Asmus, Die 20. Inf. Div. (mot) (spaeter 20. Pz. Gren. Div.) Chronik und Geschichte
http://arcanahistorii.prv.pl/slowo/pdf2/3.pdf
http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=124240

Cheers. Raúl M .

[tigre]

Hello to all ; more follows........

Krojanty the end of the myth.

Fall Weiss - From the border to the Brahe River.

At midnight the last report arrived up to the Division informing that the troops had occupied its positions. At 03:00 hours the batteries informed to be ready to receive fire missions. On the border they were IR 76 (Oberst Gollnick) to the right and IR 90 (Oberst Kraiss) to the left; IR 69 (Oberst Fischer) 2 km in front of Schlochau as reserve.

At 04:45 hours the artillery unleashed its programmed fires (60 grenades by battery) and with that cover the infantry crossed the border.

Mosnitz the first town was taken and shortly after in Mosnitzwald at 05:30 hours after crossing the border a patrol of Polish riders was annihilated. Gefr. Meier. The first shock was against the Platoon of ppor Jan Sasa which after interchanging shots withdrew fulfilling orders of the Rtm Jan Lados.

Sources: http://www.grudziadz.pl/_main_kaw_en.php?link=4
auctionfactory.de
http://www.mapywig.org/m/WIG100_300DPI/ ... 300dpi.jpg
Incidents of the Campaign in Poland 1939. The Field Artillery Journal. Jun 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Gollnick
D. Asmus, Die 20. Inf. Div. (mot) (spaeter 20. Pz. Gren. Div.) Chronik und Geschichte
http://arcanahistorii.prv.pl/slowo/pdf2/3.pdf
http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=124240

Cheers. Raúl M .