fate of 20. Panzergrenadier Division

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Mark V.
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#16

Post by Mark V. » 24 Dec 2005, 17:00

Hi genstab!

The text posted by Tom, says the division (or rather what remained of it) made its way to Reymann at Potsdam and then retreated with him to Wenck, no mention of any elements remaining in Berlin. This is also confirmed by Tieke.

(page 349) 27 April 1945
..20.Panzer Grenadier Division took up positions in the southern Grunewald and at Wannsee, with the task of holding the bridges over the Teltow Kanal for 12. Armee (Wenck). During the day the division is pushed to Wannsee and with elements encircled. Commander, Generalmajor Scholze, is at the end of the nerves and shots himself. He lost his wife and children in an air-raid in Potsdam a few weeks earlier. 20.Pz.Gren.Div. is subordinated to Gruppe Reymann in Potsdam, because it's impossible to lead the division from Weidling's command post…

Günther W. Gellermann in Die Armee Wenck - Hitlers letzte Hoffnung on pg. 88, questions the possibility of the remains of the division making their way to Reymann. In the footnote he uses General Weidling's post-war article that he on 27 April ordered the remains of the Division to be subordinated to Kampfkommandant Potsdam.

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fate of 20.Pz.Gr.Div.

#17

Post by Tom Nutter » 24 Dec 2005, 17:36

Genstab, Karte 134 is dated 25-4-45.

Wilmersdorf/Zehlendorf are on the western side of Berlin, roughly 10Km west of the Tempelhof airfield. So, it would appear that the division was facing the western Allies rather than the Red Army. On this map the German front line in front of 20.Pz.Gr.Div. runs N/S very closely along the course of the Havel River. It looks as though the division was placed right along a major highway (that is still shown on my modern map). To the northeast of the division is 18.Pz.Gr.Div., and to its southeast is Pz.Div. "Muenchenberg".

All the best.

Tom


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20. Panzergrenadier Division

#18

Post by genstab » 24 Dec 2005, 18:10

Tom,
Thanks- only thing I'm wondering now is were all three divisions (including 18. PzGren and PzDiv Muenchenberg) shown on the map as being under any particular command- 12. Armee, or AG Spree?
Of course that was as of 25 April. Where the other two diviusions went in the next week would be inter- esting to find out too. But we're making progress- thanks to Mark for the translation too!

Best,
Genstab

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fate of 20.Pz.Gr.Div.

#19

Post by Tom Nutter » 24 Dec 2005, 19:49

Genstab, the map for 25.-4.-45. seems to show 20.Pz.Gr.Div., 18.Pz.Gr.Div. and Pz.Div. "Muenchenberg" as being under the command of LVI.Pz.Korps. This mostly corresponds to the Kriegsgliederung that I have for H.Gr. Weichsel dated 30.4.1945 (the next earliest one I have that includes H.Gr.Weichsel is for 12.4.45.). In the KGL for 30.4.45. LVI.Pz. Korps is shown to be subordinate to "Verteidigung-Bereich Berlin" (which I take to mean "defense zone Berlin"). This formation seems to have had Armee status, and under it LVI.Pz.Korps included 20.Pz.Gr., Pz.Div. "Muenchenberg", 9.Fsch.Jg.Div. and Gruppe Oberst Oertel. On this KGL, however, 18.Pz.Gr.Div. is shown to be under the command of Korps Reimann (Reymann?), 12.Armee.

Regards.

Tom

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20. Panzergrenadier Division

#20

Post by genstab » 24 Dec 2005, 20:50

Right, Tom- but I'm told that 30.4.45 O/B wasn't one of the official OKH Krieggliederung but one of those from the period from September 1944 on created by the Bundsarchiv-Militaerarchiv after the war. The 12.4.45 however was an OKH Op. Abt. creation. So that leaves us doubting the complete accuracy of the 30 April O/B.

Best regards,
Bill/Genstab

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#21

Post by Tom Nutter » 25 Dec 2005, 03:57

Bill, I was aware that the KGL in question is not a document originally created by OKH/OKW. Other than this fact, are you (or anyone else, for that matter) aware of any independent reason to doubt its accuracy? I suppose that it would be very difficult indeed to assemble the true KGL for 30.4.45. But in the absence of contradictory evidence from original sources, how do we know that what the BA/MA did was inaccurate? Another pertinent question is whether anyone in the research community knows the method by which BA/MA created its KGLs. In other words, does anything in the method used suggest that the BA/MA KGLs are more likely than not to be innacurate. And if part of one of the BA/MA KGLs were shown by means of original sources to be inaccurate, is that sufficient reason to conclude that the entire document is inaccurate?

These questions really go beyond the subject matter of this thread, and they really aren't directed at you personally, but at the research community in general. But, I would appreciate having your thoughts on them, because they do seem to be particularly relevant to the study of the last six months of the war.

Kind regards and Merry Christmas.

Tom

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20. Panzergrenadier Division

#22

Post by genstab » 25 Dec 2005, 04:38

No, I wouldn't say the whole O/B- or the others the BA-MA created- are inaccurate. But with any particular division they may be mistaken. I know because I just revised an 1800 page O/B manuscript and copyrighted it for the third time after twenty years research (SavasBeatie is publishing it next fall) and I have many examples from the post-September 1944-45 O/Bs where divisions were proven to my satisfaction by other sources to be under different commands at the times of the O/Bs. So in this case I would say the 12 April O/B is more reliable but that doesn't help us at the end of the month when the OKH and OKW were scattered or in transit.

Actually, I hadn't looked at the 30 April O/B till just now and I see 20. Panzergrenadier doesn't even appear- anywhere, so in trying to figure out this division's whereabouts it doesn't help. I was just mentioning the fact that that O/B may not be as accurate as the ones actually done by the OKH for anyone's benefit if they found a seemingly reliable source that conflicted with it. I know I was darn glad to get the word which O/Bs were postwar creations- though admittedly the BA-MA could have gotten more units right with the documentation they've pulled together since the war's end.

And there were many instances where the official OKH O/Bs have typos- in division numbers, Corps Roman numersls, etc in the 1940-43 period, which were generally more reliable than the 1944-45 O/Bs. I compiled a typed list of them totalling some 11 typed pages with the correction and sources authenticating them. But you have to acquire other trustworthy sources to play off against them. The KTB-OKW O/Bs are fine but much fewer in number; Tessin's Army O'Bs help but they too have typos, Tessin most of all though it was probably the printers' fault and not his.

So where does this leave us? 20. Panzergrenadier on 30 April was where? apparently under Kpf. Kdt. Potsdam? It seems most likely. So apparently Le Tissier is wrong about it joining 3. Panzerarmee.

Best regards,
Genstab
Last edited by genstab on 25 Dec 2005, 20:18, edited 2 times in total.

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fate of 20.Pz.Gr.Div.

#23

Post by Tom Nutter » 25 Dec 2005, 06:31

Bill, thank you for that most informative post. As my post suggested, I had been aware of the fact that post-war orders of battle had been put together by BA/MA, and of the questions that had been raised about them, but did not know whether there was hard evidence to support the suspicions. After reading your post, I understand the criticism much more clearly.

I will be one of the first buyers of your book when it publishes. You will have performed a great service for researchers in this field. I have lots of material, but one thing I have found out is that one can never have enough of it. I will be watching for the publication of your work.

Kind regards.

Tom

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20. Panzergrenadier Division

#24

Post by genstab » 25 Dec 2005, 14:56

Tom,
Thanks for the kind words. You're so right about not being able to have enough material when you're dealing with something like O/Bs. I have some 200 sources in my Bibliography, virtually all of them books (and every one of which I own, at least in photocopy as far as German language books go as they are too hard and expensive to buy even if still in print)- and they only fill in the gaps between the official O/Bs. As long as I've been working on O/Bs- and I realize that some Forum members have been at it longer , know more and are better equipped, I am still learning new things. I've just discovered the probable location of Army Group O/Bs for the 9/39 to 5/40 period in the NARA captured German records and am pursuing new ones via interlibrary loan. The primary sources are always best, and there was probably less chance for error at that level than at OKH, dealing with the whole Wehrmacht.

If you're doing ongoing O/B work I'd be glad to send you a copy of my O/B errata listings and corrections for the OKH O/Bs (Geheimen Tagesberichte)- 25 pages, the KTB-OKW O/Bs (9 pages) and Tessin's Army O/Bs (18 pages)- all typed- for only the cost of postage and copying (I unfortunately don't have the whole thing on diskette as I typed the original lists- about two-thirds of each list- over ten years ago and only added the later addenda pages which are on diskette). I made the offer on the Forum once before but only one guy has taken me up on it- he's really happy with the lists.

I think you'll like my book- I was fortunate enough to be encouraged by Dr. Steve Newton to the point that he is coauthoring with me in writing history capsules for the units. It really helps to have such an experienced and first rate coauthor when you're not known in the field and not a professional historian. The first volume will be the O/Bs of commands from Corps with their divisions on up through theaters, followed in a year or two with one on the divisions (all branches), also with Prof. Newton's history capsules. Both volumes have all the sequential commanders and dates listeed which you no doubt know is a whole 'nother subject; this was originally a second manuscript which I combined with the O/B book to give it extra value. I've got some commanders nobody else has from what I've seen of similar works. Of course here Bradley is the primary source- or compiled from the primary source- but virtually all my 200 sources have given me generals' (or colonels' in some cases) names and command dates too. Bradley too unfortunately has errata- when the last volume is completed and we're all retired I'll put out an errata list on it also.

That's what's so valuable about Forums like this and Feldgrau- everyone helps everyone else with data they need. You've helped me with this division- let me know if I can try to help you with an O/B or commander's name- any time. The rest of you too, guys- together we're finding lost items in history.

Merry Christmas!
Best regards,
Bill McCroden
Genstab in Salem, OR

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fate of 20.Pz.Gr.Div.

#25

Post by Tom Nutter » 25 Dec 2005, 21:12

Bill, I can't wait to see your books.

I'll send you a PM with my contact information so that I can order your errata sheets.

Kind regards.

Tom

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#26

Post by Glynwed » 26 Dec 2005, 00:16

20.PzGrD
16.April 1945 (morning) – area Golzow-Alt Tucheband
16.April 1945 (night) – area Werbig-Seelow
17.April 1945 (night) – area Diedersdorf
18.April 1945 (night) – area Jahnsfelde-Marxdorf
19.April 1945 (night) – area Muncheberg

According the book...what´s going on? :|

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20. Panzergrenadier Division

#27

Post by genstab » 30 Dec 2005, 14:28

Hallo Bill
Die 20.PzGrD kam am 23.04.1945 mit dem LVI.PzK in Berlin hinein und verlegte in den Raum Grunewald und Zehlendorf. Die Abwehrfront ist nur Stützpunktartig besetzt da nur Reste der Division nach Berlin rein kamen. Beim Großangriff der Russen auf den Stadtkern von Berlin (25.04.1945) wird die Division langsam auf Potsdam abgedrängt. An ihrer Stelle tritt die HJ-Brig."Reichsjugendführer Axmann".
Die 20.PzGrD steht jetzt im südl.Grunewald und am Wannsee, mit Auftrag die Brücken über den Teltowkanal offen zu halten. Gegen Nachmittag wird die Division an den Wannsee abgedränkt und Teile werden eingeschlossen.
Gen.Maj.Scholze ist nervlich am Ende und erschießt sich. Wochen zuvor hatte er Frau und Kind bei einen Bombenangriff auf Potsdam verloren.
Die 20.PzGrD wird am 27.04.1945 jetzt endgültig der Gruppe Reymann (Armee-Abteilung "Spree") unterstellt.

Können Sie mir bitte die Order of Battle schicken!!
Bei weieren Fragen steh ich gern zu Verfügung.

By Jan Linzmaier

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